Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I must have been out of the loop longer than I thought. I have to get one these. Amazing.

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(Army National Guard, Charlie Rock Co.)
06/03/1979-06/22/2005
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I admit it is cool looking though i am not a fan of most crosses.

Thats awsome. Thanks for sharing. I'd love to have one of those. What do ya think Bud ?

That is a really sweet snake!!!

Congratulations John!!!

If I'm not mistaken those are about a year old aren't they - looks to be a good size snake not too big not too little.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

Yes. It does not look that big YET. How big will it be in 3 years??? I would think that it would reach at least 10-12 ft. Thoughts????
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Bill Buchman

im thinking it will probly stop at 7 feet
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Jake Barney and Brandon O'Dell
eight02exotics

current (small) collection
1.1.1 ball pythons
0.2 corns
1.0 cal king
0.0.1 wc garter

balls have made some extremley cool crosses
theve also been bred too: short tail pythons, angolans, carpets and womas
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Jake Barney and Brandon O'Dell
eight02exotics

current (small) collection
1.1.1 ball pythons
0.2 corns
1.0 cal king
0.0.1 wc garter

Why do people keep messing with Mother Nature , If they were intended to cross then Nature would have found a way for it have happened in the wild . Its one thing to create morphs but to breed 2 different species that were not intended to breed is irresponsible in my opinion . David

This is just the sot of thing that will get Balls added to the permit or ban lists , this just gives them the proof that if Balls escape from someone or are turned out into the wild that they could have a effect on the indigenes species ,and could cross with other species in the wild !! David of DS Reptile Rescue

Great point David, just when we thought ball pythons could be a safe haven. Someone can now make the point that they can breed w/ Burms !!! Arent there enough ball python mutations, as well as countless others that havent even been produced yet? Do we really need to mix species from different continents? I`m strongly opposed to these freak show hybrids. Mark BallPython777.com

Thats it, just turn some ball pythons loose in the everglades and they can breed with the burms.Or better yet cross the two and turn loose the mutts then fish and game will have a reason to take all or our snakes from us.Most good things are spoiled the greedy and the ignorant.

Very nice looking. As long as they a clearly defined i dont see a problem with these wonders. IMO if 2 different species werent meant to breed then it would be impossible for it to happen
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Adrian De Leon
Hissenia Reptiles

hmm..i'm not into breeding crosses much but it's a beautiful snake. i think that if they weren't meant to breed they wouldn't have. i'm pretty sure there are crosses in the wild too. it would be interesting to know how big it would be as an adult.
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1.0 arg. b/w tegu
2.1 het pieds
0.1 southern painted turtle
0.1 crested gecko
1.0 apbt

now that i think about it.. breeding different morphs of ball pythons and other snakes isn't natural either. not many people seem to have a problem with this so i don't think it's a biggie to breed two diff. species. it's kinda the same thing if you think about it.. that's just my opinion...
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1.0 arg. b/w tegu
2.1 het pieds
0.1 southern painted turtle
0.1 crested gecko
1.0 apbt

No its not the same . With morphs they are the same species . Just like people are technically morphs of the first human .they are all different colors a patterns but all the same species ! David

Without getting into a creation vs. evolution vs. fixity of species debate - all sides pretty much say - if they can create viable offspring then they are or were at some point in their "evolution" the same, meant to reproduce, etc.

Keep in mind scientific classification is a system created by humans to neatly compartmentalize nature - but it's not a natural system by any means - its also been found to be flawed several times over since Lineas (?) devised it so long ago.

So the next time you say that shouldn't be done based solely on the fact that they are not the same species - ask yourself who's apt to be more right - the scientists or nature?
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Tosha
JET Pythons

Your right nature is rite and that is what I was saying if it were mint to be nature would find a way for it to be without mans interference . I say again were are the Ball X Rock Hybrids in Africa they share some of the same habitat and if they were mint to cross that would be the perfect opportunity for it to be so . David

You're forgetting this little thing called continental drift.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

Tosha the Ball and African Rock shear some of the same habitat ,IT‘S CALLED THE SAVANNA !!David

wheres thw savanna monitor ball cross? JK
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Adrian De Leon
Hissenia Reptiles

Sorry missed that - seems like there was a wc rock ball posted a few years ago - not sure if it was authenticated or not - perhaps someone can search the archives.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

If it can be authenticated then I will shut up about this cross but I just viewed a forum brought to my att. Called hybrid discussion and saw a Carpet X Ball called the Carpall and that would be a geographic impossibility just like the Blood X Ball ,the Woma X Ball and I will keep speaking out on any Hybrid that dose not a cure in nature .like I said morphs are one thing but I can’t agree with hybrids . And if people are going to make them then there needs to be a registry and all should be pit tagged as such to protect the integrity of the species .thanks David

See the problem (as I see it) with your argument is that it's based solely on the here and now and a humans desire to label and classify - not what nature has shown us to be true and possible.

In the beginning - whatever your belief- there were a group of humans and a group of animals - at some point either by Gods divine intervention or by natural processes - these groups were dispersed and the continents drifted, there was a huge flood, etc. people and animals began to change and adapt to their new environments.

Essentially these are all the same kind of snakes coming from the same place - they've just adapted differently to different environments. If nature hadn't intended on these animals to breed and reproduce (at some point) then it wouldn't be possible. If you put a monkey and a dog in the same cage - if they breed - they certainly won't produce viable offspring.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

Makes sense
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Adrian De Leon
Hissenia Reptiles

Cant you see we are saying some of the same things whether the flood or what ever man didn’t make it so , it happened with out our interference .and no a monkey and a dog can’t reproduce but different primates can and different dogs can and a lot of that dog dreading was done with mans interference it’s the same thing and a man can reproduce with a Orangutan , there DNA ‘s are almost the same being they are the closest match to ours but you don’t see that happening like I said before It is my opinion that Hybrids are wrong ,I don’t expect you or any one else to change your opinions ,you have a right to them .I just put out there what I think so shoot me LOL . Variety is the spice of life . David

Could you clarify this please. Are you saying that all snakes are pretty much the same because they all evolved from a common ancestor? By this logic, isnt all life the same species since we all come from little single celled organisms from billions of years ago. What I am trying to say is that when organisms of the same species become isolated, for whatever reasons, after time they typically change and become seperate species (allopatric speciation). Its easy to argue that this is just a "classification" put in place by man, but I highly doubt that a ball python's genome is identical to that of a reticulated python or a burmese python, which would imply that it is a different species.
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0.1 Normal Cornsnake
1.0 Sumatran Short Tail Python
3.3 Ball Pythons (2 normals, 2 pastel, 1 yb and 1 ?)

The branches of life are considered different species if they can't produce fertile offspring. I agree that it's all one life on this planet, but it's broken into multiple species that can't interbreed.

Some people here seem to think nature has some kind of will. That's just magical thinking.

If nature wanted it done why are oceans separating them ?

I can see where you are coming from but I have to disagree. Color and pattern variations are naturally occuring. We have taken it to the extreme with designer morphs but all of those morphs were created by combining naturally occuring genetic mutations. Whether or not those mutations would have lent themselves to survival in the wild is a whole other issue.

Burms and balls, on the other hand, are not going to hybridize in the wild as they are on separate continents. Whether or not they have ever shared habitat in their history, to me, is irrelevant. In recent history, there is no way for a natural ball/burm hybrid to occur.

Having said all that, my biggest issue with hybrids is the potential for me to end up with an animal that is not what I intended to work with. I chose, for a variety of reasons, to work with ball pythons, not burms. Now in the case of these pics, the fact that the animal is not pure ball python is obvious to someone who is knowledgeable about burms and balls. However, what about someone new to snakes? Or how about several more generations when the appearance is not so different one way or the other? The possibility could exist for me to get a "ball" python that had burm blood in it and that is not what I want.

I recognize that, as a buyer, I have some of the responsibility for doing my due diligence in determining that I am getting the animal I want. However, there are those that would pass off a hybrid as one species or the other just to make a sale.

I'm not going to stand here and try to tell someone that they can't make hybrids if that is their thing. I just think it is a risky proposition in terms of potentially poluting the gene pool and much different from taking two naturally occuring variations and making a Snow Ball, for example.

Just my thoughts. These and $1.00 will get you the paper.

Rob

Ha Rob that’s why I said there needs to be a registry and all Hybrids should have to be pit tagged as such to protect the integrity of the gene pools . And you are right about new herpers being fooled I was just in Petsmart the other day and they had a tank of Corns and there were some that looked like corns but there were some that I could tell were a Corn X Imperial Rat Snake cross . And the sales people were totally unaware . David

Many, many, many "pure morphs" are actually crosses. You mentioned Corn Snakes, ever heard of the Creamsicle?
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

Have not read all of the thread yet -- but will. Does anyone know whether a hybrid can produce offspring? Mules which are a bi-product of a horse and a donkey are sterile.
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Bill Buchman

There are cases of hybrids producing. There are F2 Super Balls
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Adrian De Leon
Hissenia Reptiles

Then I guess your not opposed to a human breeding with a primate or a horse or lamb ,cow or pig ? This is what is wrong with today society ! If they were mint to breed they would be in the same continent and as a matter of fact if they were mint to breed they would have bred with the African Rock Python a sub. Of the Burm !! They share the same habitat, and I haven’t heard of there offspring crawling around the savannas .!!!! David

well.. humans and animals are so very different.. but back on topic. if natural homeland determins breeding rights then what are all these Ball pythons from ghana breeding over here for. I think the snakes that can "hybridize" have to be connected somewhere in the past.. Just a thought
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Adrian De Leon
Hissenia Reptiles

Like I said, then were are all the Ball X Rock hybrids at over in Africa ???? David

no disrespect david but if you are so against going against nature maybe ball breeding isnt for you i mean its probably not all that natural for a ball python to live in a plastic tub and its probably not natural for someone else to pick its mate each year and its probably not natural for someone to take its offspring and turn it into a buck or two so maybe you should rethink you whole situation
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Jeff Stringer

Well Jeff I think you are being petty , there is a big difference in what you are saying and what we were talking about . I love my hobby and just tri to protect it . If you cant see the holes this sort of thing open in our defense about keeping herps. Will not effect the ecosystem if there is a accidental escape but if people keep showing that the potential for them to breed with other spices and or thrive were they are not a part of the ecosystem then we will lose our right to keep them . And I don’t do a lot of breeding anymore because I don’t have the room do to all the reptile I take in threw my rescue because people are so irrespirable and expect some one else to clean up after them . I love reptile and have kept them for 35 year so don’t’ be petty keeping herps is just like others keeping dogs and cats ,I don’t have a problem with any one who takes care of there captive animals and dos so reasonably . No disrespect Jeff. Thanks David

Breeding mutations is not really different from hybrids. Us humans are deciding how we want animals to appear. In fact some textbooks reference mutations that are intentionally perpetuated as being synonymous with hybrids.

Do you have a dog, cat, or any other domestic pet?
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

I think the argument that breeding morphs is the same as breeding hybrids is fundamentally flawed. Sure, morphs and hybrids are both not so "natural" since man is breeding them, but the similarities end there. Breeding morphs of the same species is just like a blond haired human reproducing with a brown haired human. It happens all the time with no real genetic problems. Breeding a carpet python to a ball is totally different. These animals are of two separate genera, and this would be like breeding a house cat to a tiger (Felis x Panthera), and I doubt there are many people who would look favorably on that idea. To each his own I guess, I just feel its somewhat irresponsible to treat hybrids just like they were just another morph.
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0.1 Normal Cornsnake
1.0 Sumatran Short Tail Python
3.3 Ball Pythons (2 normals, 2 pastel, 1 yb and 1 ?)

>>I think the argument that breeding morphs is the same as breeding hybrids is fundamentally flawed. Sure, morphs and hybrids are both not so "natural" since man is breeding them, but the similarities end there. Breeding morphs of the same species is just like a blond haired human reproducing with a brown haired human. It happens all the time with no real genetic problems. Breeding a carpet python to a ball is totally different. These animals are of two separate genera, and this would be like breeding a house cat to a tiger (Felis x Panthera), and I doubt there are many people who would look favorably on that idea. To each his own I guess, I just feel its somewhat irresponsible to treat hybrids just like they were just another morph.
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>>0.1 Normal Cornsnake
>>1.0 Sumatran Short Tail Python
>>3.3 Ball Pythons (2 normals, 2 pastel, 1 yb and 1 ?)

I agree....I myself have one parent with blue eyes/blonde hair and one with brown eyes/brown hair..Does this make me a hybrid?..No just heterozygous for blue eyes and blonde hair.

On a side note however.Science today is starting to unravel our own historical origins.Which is leaning towards a multiple hominoid theory.Showing that modern day homo-sapiens are possibly the result of hybridization.
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Charles Glaspie

You seem to have a belief that's not based in reason, and you've gone way off the rails in trying to defend it.

Just accept that the reaction against hybrids is one of your quirks, and try not putting words on other's mouths.

This is just my opinion,a burm bred to a ball makes a worthless mutt.Take this thread to the hybrid forum.

There is no forum named Hybrid ! David

http://forums.kingsnake.com/forum.php?catid=17

try this
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Adrian De Leon
Hissenia Reptiles

>>There is no forum named Hybrid ! David

Actually, there is......Hybrid Discussion, General Forums H-R. Never been there myself as hybrids are not my thing....but it is there.

Rob

If there is my bad ,I didn’t see it in the list on the forum page . David

No worries, just wanted you to know that it was there. As I said, hybrids are not my thing so I have never visited the forum.

Rob

Thanks Rob, I just went there and was sickened by what I saw . David

Look under hybrid discussion .

hybrids have their place in allowing us to better understand the relationships in the animals we keep. The information will also prove valuable when someone gets the time to sit down and re-vamp the current taxonomy. Which is, as we all know, messed up.

Though I doubt that is the motive that most people have in creating them.
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

The length of this thread is the reason people will continue to make hybrids. its interesting
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Adrian De Leon
Hissenia Reptiles

As a biology nerd....I find taxonomy very interesting, but also confusing at times :0 My comments probably mean little at this point in the thread, but just to make myself feel better...

1. I don't believe "that if they can produce offspring they were meant to breed". If they don't reproduce in the wild, they weren't meant to breed. It is as simple as that!

2. I do agree that producing and combining morphs is also something that like hybridization, really alters the gene pool of the animal(s) involved. In essence we are designing species.

3. A burm/ball may actually be quite large as an adult....hybrid animals usually display what is known as 'hybrid vigour'. This means the offspring grow much larger and faster than either parent, and it appears that many hybridizations can cause gigantism. This occurs with ligers, a larger tiger is about 650 pounds and a lion around 500 pounds, but a large liger is almost 1200 pounds.

4. Reptile hybrids are often fertile. Mammal hybrids are rarely fertile. This may suggest that reptile species are more closely related to each other than mammal species, but we are not entirely sure (or at least I haven't heard any other reason)?

5. IMO, the more and more we affect the earth and its inhabitants the more hybridization will become prominent in captivity and in the wild. Recently it was found that polar bears and grizzly bears can hybridize in the wild. In Canada a odd looking polar bear was shot and killed. DNA evidence showed that its mother was a polar bear and its father was a grizzly. It is unclear to whether it would be fertile.
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Thanks,
Amy
My Boids

I agree with the above post, even though it was able to produce off spring, it was not meant to be bred. Look at the horse and donkey, whhen crossed, we get a mule 98% of the time these animals are sterile, I belive this is because these 2 animals would not breed in nature, so they produce fertile offspring to prevent the animal to further reproduce. I belive that if this ball/burm turns out to be fertile, at some point in history, these animals shared the same environment, which now they may be seperated because of continental drift. i dont belive that this animal was meant to be crossed, but accidents to happen in nature. yal keep bringing up the ball/rock, if i remember correctly there have been a few cases of wild caught ball/african rock crosses. it may not happen alot, but it happens just my .02

I like it. I'm not into hybrids but this one looks alright. I'm more interested tracking it's progress as it grows. I'd like to see what becomes of it as far as length.

As far as the morphs are okay because they are the same species viewpoint. This has got to be one of the most under-thought and self serving arguments that has been posted yet.

The morphs are mutations. Nature normally does not allow for mutations to be passed on. Either the animal is killed due to it's inability to hide (predation), it is killed by it's own kind due to it's unrecognizable mutant features, or it is not given the chance to breed since finding a mate can be difficult if it's species relies on visual cues for mating.

There is one other argument that can be posed against the breeding of morphs. Since these are mutations they are not intended to be passed on. We are messing with way more than just a snake's color and pattern. This is evidenced through some of the fatal combos we have begun to stumble upon as well as knowledge of how genes work in all species. Mice for example have over fifty genes that determine the color of their coats all working at the same time. Our ball pythons are probably just as complex if not more so. Each of these genes can control more than just color or pattern.

Look at Down Syndrome in humans. If aliens visited our planet and started collecting human morphs with the same mentality we use for pythons would they view Downs Syndrome as another morph and would intentionally breed it into future generations? Think about it for a minute. We have already noticed changes in behavior in some of these mutations as well as physical deformities. Are we breeding the python equivalent of Downs Syndrome or some other limiting deformity into our future stock?

Morphs are no better than hybrids as long as neither combination finds it's way back into the wild.

You can say that about the designer morphs but the true morphs did and do a cure in the wild how do you think they got here they were imported ! David

the odds of a bumblebee, or killerbee for that matter, being produced naturally are way better than the odds of a burm ball cross being produced naturally. also, evolution requires mutations to improve the longterm survivability of a species. is it okay to breed two different species together? what about subspecies? what about island forms to mainland forms? or localities seperated by a mountain chain? everyone has a different "line" that they will or will not cross. of course some people look for that "line" just so they can be the first to cross it.

Albinos are a naturally occurring morph, but what percentage do you find in the wild as compared with in captivity? We are changing the gene pool by selectively breeding for the traits we desire.

That was the point I was trying to make
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Thanks,
Amy
My Boids