Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Oops, my first message was deleted. I'm going to reword this in a way that doesn't violate board rules. (Sorry PH)

A lady dropped three snakes off to me. She thinks she has an aneri (it's an amel), a juvenile butter, and a creamsicle.

The top pic is the adult female that seems to me to just be an amel.

The middle is a juvenile butter (?)

The last one is an adult male creamsicle (?) He is in his opaque phase, but seems to have a lot of yellow and pink underneath, and the blunt head of a rat snake vs the streamlined head of a corn snake.

Any ID help would be great since I'm not as well versed in the morphs as many of you are.

Thanks!!

You are correct on your IDs, that's exactly what I would have guessed just by looking at the pictures.

Tim

Third Eye

I also agree with you & Tim,.....that's a very typical look for those three morphs, and the "butter's" yellow coloration will intensify as it matures.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

what would the amel X creamsicle cross produce? Would the amel continue to dilute the hybrid to the E.guttata side?

Assuming both are NOT recessive gene carriers(heterozygous) for any other genetic traits, you will get ALL amel(albino) offspring that carry some creamsicle(emoryi) influence, depending on how much is "actually" in the genetic make-up of the one you posted.

A "creamsicle" corn is an..... amel. corn x amel. Great Plains Ratsnake(emoryi) combination.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

The mating you described would indeed be a greater percentage of cornsnake,....and like I mentioned previously, that would soley depend on the percentage actually in the one crossed.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

"A "creamsicle" corn is an..... amel. corn x amel. Great Plains Ratsnake(emoryi) combination."

I thought creamsicles were created by crossing an amel corn by a normal GPR. I'm not trying to stir up trouble and, in reality, I guess it really does not matter at this point. I was just curious.

Rob

I see exactly what you're getting at,.........no, I'm not implying that a genuine" amel emoryi, was first bred to a amel corn to produce "creamsicles", like you said, it was the amel from the corn that was introduced to the emoryi, and then heterozygous offspring back-bred to each other, or back to parent that originally created them.

As you might also know, the newly discovered amel gene dicovered in a W/C animal from Kansas(I think), is NOT compatible at all with the amel gene we have known in cornsnakes for many years.

Sorry for the mis-communication!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

...I thought that was the case but just wanted to be sure. As I said, it was really a curiosity thing more than anyting else. I was also unaware that the amel emoryi was not compatible with the amel guttata that has been around forever (a pair of amel guttata were the first snakes I ever owned). Just out of more curiosity, do you know if anyone has produced a double homo amel guttata x amel emoryi? Just wondering if the two different genes would effect the appearance that much or we would still be looking at a creamsicle, essentially.

Thanks again for the info...I appreciate it.

Rob

>>I see exactly what you're getting at,.........no, I'm not implying that a genuine" amel emoryi, was first bred to a amel corn to produce "creamsicles", like you said, it was the amel from the corn that was introduced to the emoryi, and then heterozygous offspring back-bred to each other, or back to parent that originally created them.
>>
>> As you might also know, the newly discovered amel gene dicovered in a W/C animal from Kansas(I think), is NOT compatible at all with the amel gene we have known in cornsnakes for many years.
>>
>> Sorry for the mis-communication!
>>
>>
>>
>> ~Doug
>>-----
>>"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Well, I'm sure given just a little time that this will surely happen, but I don't think the new emoryi gene has been available long enough for all this to have taken place yet. Maybe this year people like Don Soderberg, and a few others will have done this, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm a hard core "purist", and mixing these two snakes would be the farthest thing from my mind, but many others don't see things the way I do.

It won't be long at all before this happens though, if it hasn't already, there's plenty of people just "itchin'" to do just that, I'm sure.

Personally, I like the idea of keeping these lines totally separate.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

...about keeping the lines separate and being a purist. Personally, though, I think I fall somewhere in the middle. There was just a long discussion on the BP forum about a burm/ball cross in which I posted my opposition to such a cross. At the same time, I have always like creamsicles. Some in the discussion on the BP forum argued that there was no difference between the two. To me, I guess, there is a difference between an animal like a burm/ball, that could not possibly occur in nature, and an emoryi/guttata cross that could possibly occur in nature. I know that may sound hypocritical (sp?) but that is just where I draw the line.

I'm not trying to start a raging debate or fire anyone up...I was just curious about the emoryi stuff and wanted to share my thoughts. Thanks again.

Rob

>>Well, I'm sure given just a little time that this will surely happen, but I don't think the new emoryi gene has been available long enough for all this to have taken place yet. Maybe this year people like Don Soderberg, and a few others will have done this, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm a hard core "purist", and mixing these two snakes would be the farthest thing from my mind, but many others don't see things the way I do.
>>
>> It won't be long at all before this happens though, if it hasn't already, there's plenty of people just "itchin'" to do just that, I'm sure.
>>
>> Personally, I like the idea of keeping these lines totally separate.
>>
>>
>> ~Doug
>>-----
>>"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I'm not a breeder per se, I just happen to have a pair of Sunglows that I like, but I thought the hybrid vigor was desirable. Is that the debatable portion? I'm following this thread with interest, but don't want to open a can of worms. I, too, can see where these two lines are similar and more acceptable than the burm/ball crosses. I'm not a fan of retic/Burm crosses either, for that matter.

>>..

one thing that I always like to bring to the forefront on creamsicle and other emoryi/corn crosses is.....
When people first started crossing them, emoryis were considered a sub species of corn and it wasn't really a cross.
elaphe guttata guttata
elaphe guttata emoryi
so, up until "science" decided to reclassify emoryi as a separate species it was nothing more then breeding corns from different areas of the country.

Ok having said that...
a way I like to describe creamsicles, that I think may be just a touch clearer is...a corn/emoryi cross expressing amelanism.
a cinnamon as a corn/emoryi cross expressing hypomelanism...etc
I guess we could take these a touch farther and say expressing corn snake amelanism or corn snake hypomelanism.

Now as most people on these forums would know by now, I love corn/emoryi crosses.
Some of my favorite snakes are these crosses but at the same time I am not very fond of most of the other crosses such as king/corn, gopher/corn or something like the burm/ball but even though I have no desire to work with them I also don't have a problem with people who do work with these animals.

I think we have sooo many people determined to keep corns as pure as possible it would take a true effort accross the entire hobby to "pollute" the corn snake population.
For every person working with hybrids there are probably two hundred that don't.
and most of the ones that work with crosses, like me, also work with pure animals and always let anyone and everyone know exactly what they are getting.

sorry to babble on...
I don't even know if I'm on topic anymore.....LOL

-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

>>>>..
>>
>>one thing that I always like to bring to the forefront on creamsicle and other emoryi/corn crosses is.....
>>When people first started crossing them, emoryis were considered a sub species of corn and it wasn't really a cross.
>>elaphe guttata guttata
>>elaphe guttata emoryi
>>so, up until "science" decided to reclassify emoryi as a separate species it was nothing more then breeding corns from different areas of the country.
>>
>>Ok having said that...
>>a way I like to describe creamsicles, that I think may be just a touch clearer is...a corn/emoryi cross expressing amelanism.
>>a cinnamon as a corn/emoryi cross expressing hypomelanism...etc
>>I guess we could take these a touch farther and say expressing corn snake amelanism or corn snake hypomelanism.
>>
>>Now as most people on these forums would know by now, I love corn/emoryi crosses.
>>Some of my favorite snakes are these crosses but at the same time I am not very fond of most of the other crosses such as king/corn, gopher/corn or something like the burm/ball but even though I have no desire to work with them I also don't have a problem with people who do work with these animals.
>>
>>I think we have sooo many people determined to keep corns as pure as possible it would take a true effort accross the entire hobby to "pollute" the corn snake population.
>>For every person working with hybrids there are probably two hundred that don't.
>>and most of the ones that work with crosses, like me, also work with pure animals and always let anyone and everyone know exactly what they are getting.
>>
>>
>>sorry to babble on...
>>I don't even know if I'm on topic anymore.....LOL
>>
>>-----
>>Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
>>"Resistance is futile"
>>Jimmy Johnson
>>(Draybar)
>> Draybars Snakes
>>
>>_____

...I meant to add that you put into words exactly what I was thinking. I sometimes get lost in my thoughts when I try to actually write them out but I agree with you 100%.

Rob