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My female three-toed arrived yesterday, and I am a bit confused about a couple of issues. Primarily, her sheer size completely overshadows my male three-toed, which I hoped to be her "companion," so to speak. My male three-toed is not over 5 or so inches, while the female I received is way over 6! She is also much wider and has a much higher shell than he. Her head, neck and limbs are all larger as well. I would estimate 1.3-1.5x the mass. Yes, I'm sure she is a female, and she has three toes on her back feet (which may or may not mean anything).

The appearance is also markedly different. My male has a very light, tan shell and he has some attractive creamsicle-like oranges and yellows on his limbs. While I realize that females are supposed to be duller in appearance on the limbs, her shell is much, much darker--a muddy brown, if I had to name it.

So, god-like experts on all things three-toed, here are my questions:

1) First of all, is this really a three-toed female, or could it be a Gulf Coast? I know little of that subspecies, but I know that many of them appear to be slightly darker and larger versions of three-toeds.

2) Would these two be sexually compatible? Does the relative size of the female make mating more or less likely? Can a much smaller male truly attract and then successively mount a female?

3) On that tract, will the much larger specimen intimidate daily the smaller, or will one or the other feel threatened and be hostile? Does a disparity in size cause mistrust and nervousness among box turtles?

4) If they are really both three-toeds, is my male exceptionally small and my female just exceptionally big?

Thank you for your help, and I look forward to hearing all of your insights on this strange little match I've made... Best of luck in all your turtling endeavours!

~Jason

JFeul,

It's not uncommon to have colorful three-toes. I have seen many and kept several, colored as you describe. Although it's not the norm, there are big three-toes out there. Over 6" is not out of the range, although it is on the larger end of the range.

If your male is just under 5, he may be young but *might* be mature. There is no superficial method to determine when these guys are functionaly ready to breed.

In my observation, larger females get approached far more than smaller. Not sure how the selection process goes but my bigger girls are sought the most and produce the most.

Don't worry about intimidation. Male's are usually more aggressive no matter the size. If he wants her, he will go after her. If she wants him, she will let him mate. If not, she will close up tight.

I'd be happy to have a big three-toe female. Take care of her and enjoy her.

Paul

1) First of all, is this really a three-toed female, or could it be a Gulf Coast? I know little of that subspecies, but I know that many of them appear to be slightly darker and larger versions of three-toeds.

Actually, this is what I was thinking as I read your description. I've seen gulf's sold as threetoeds, and often they can look just like oversized three-toeds. Additionally, I know of not a single case of a three-toed over six inches in scl. That would be a remarkable thing to me. For gulf coasts, it would be rare for an older adult to NOT be over 6 inches.

2) Would these two be sexually compatible? Does the relative size of the female make mating more or less likely? Can a much smaller male truly attract and then successively mount a female?

large females are hard for small males to mate with. Not only the physical problem of mounting something so out of proportion, but the fact that the female, if reluctant (which they always seem to be) can reject a male more easily. I've only once seen a female rebuff a male violently, though, so I would not worry much about that. If your male is sexually mature, I'd bet he will attempt to mate with anything vaguely resembling a female. See the photo on the web of the box turtle mating with a concrete sculpture of a turtle.

3) On that tract, will the much larger specimen intimidate daily the smaller, or will one or the other feel threatened and be hostile? Does a disparity in size cause mistrust and nervousness among box turtles?

In your case, I believe you will be okay, as it is the female (the more docile sex) that is the larger. I would hesitate to have a male in the presence of much smaller animals, though.

4) If they are really both three-toeds, is my male exceptionally small and my female just exceptionally big?

Your male sounds normal sized, this female is either an abberation or not a three-toed.

can you get some photos?

The first responder questioned whether my male was sexually mature and the answer is yes, definitely--I have owned him for over 12 years. I received him when I was a child.

Nathana suspects that my male is a normal three-toed, and that my female is perhaps a Gulf Coast, which would explain her size. Any more insight on this possibility might help.

I do not have a digital camera, but I will try and borrow one and see if I can't get a picture on here at some point. In the meantime, if I can provide further descriptions that would help nail it down, please just ask!

Thanks for all your help, turtle gurus.

~Jason

I'm going to respond with photos in a little while, but in the meantime, how do most people measure turtles?
I would say the majority of my 3 toeds are at least 6 inches long, and I get that by running a cloth tape measure over the carapace and also by running a tape measure under the plastron. I have a smaller adult male, that is around 5 1/2 inches. I've got a couple that I think must be subadult as they are closer to 5 inches.

proper measurement is SCL (straight carapace length).

If you set your turtle on a ruler, and put a book in front of them and in back of them, measuring the shell, then took the turtle away, the books would mark the spots for your measurement.

For box turtles especially, measuring over the carapace is going to result in a too high number. Flatter turtles (like softshells) would end up with nearly identical numbers. For this reason we use the straight line carapace measurement, for all species. Since we know what an average dome of a box turtle looks like, we can interpret the size of the turtle by knowing this.

Have you looked for the obvious--Three toes on each hind foot?

I am taking measurements in just general length, but the difference is quite clear. The female is just over an inch longer, quite a bit wider, with a higher dome shell, and all her extremities are also larger. I estimate that her total mass is 1.3-1.5x more than the fully mature male. This is significant.

She does have three toes in the back, but does this mean anything? I have heard over and over again on this forum that only three toes are not unusual on any carolina subspecies, while it is not uncommon to have four toes on a three-toed! This also does not rule out the possibility that she is a cross between a three-toed and a gulf, thereby making her large enough to surpass average three-toed size.

Thanks for all your help!

~Jason

I have seen many Three-toed box turtles and frankly, the males in many localities are smaller than the females! These large females are irresistable to the males. I would not worry about them being incompatible. The size of the female will not intimdate the male unless he's just naturally shy. I have a very large Three-toed as well and she gets along fine with the males and female.

About the three-toes. If she has three toes and that muddy coloration, she's most likely a Three-toed. Is her plastron a dull dark cream color as well?
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Tess
Kingsnake.com Forum Host

Tess,

Yes, the plastron is a creamy color, a yellowish-white, if you will.

Are you sure that this size discrepency is normal among three-toeds? She really is almost 1.5x the mass of the male, and all her features are much larger. Her shell is very domed compared to his as well. Do you think he'd have trouble mounting her, or do the little guys always figure it out?

In going around the internet, I have been very confused. A lot of pictures of Gulf Coast turtles look a lot like some pictures of three-toeds. My male is a "definite" three-toed, if one can call it that. It has a light, tan shell, with creamsicle oranges and yellows on his neck and face, and he is barely 5 inches long. As for the female, her darker features and larger size seem to point to Gulf Coast, but she does look totally unlike some pictures of female three-toeds that I've seen.

Obviously, there are probably some geographic areas which have populations that resemble a mixture of these subspecies. Is there any way I can absolutely rule out this girl being a Gulf Coast? Thanks, Tess!