Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey there PWD,
Just finished scrolling through your recent paper. Good job dude! Ive got a few questions though regarding the A.lubricus venoms you tested.

First, since I am rather lay with regards to all of the scientific findings written in your work, how would you rate Aspidelaps lubricus lubricus venom compared to African Naja? I know you mentined (both in the paper and to me individualy sometime back)that their venom is close to some African sp of Naja but which sp would yu put rate them closest to?

Secondly, what did you find to be the main action of their venom? Neuro, hemo, myo an equal or varied ammount of all? The reason I ask is it seems alot of hobbiest who have been tagged by them or the other sp within the genus (A.scutatus) have repoted symptoms rangeing from no systematic effects at all with only minor to moderate local effects (though I have never heard mention of necrosis. Only swelling. Somtimes up to half of the effected limb) all the way up to moderate systematic effects includeing headache, dizziness and mild paralysis. Then of cource, in the case of the 2 young girls who fell victim to an infuscatus bite, serious paralysis was most likely the fatal action(unfortunately the litature I have regarding those fatalities does not go into any clinical detail. Would you have any further info on this?). Since there seems to be such variety in accounts of symptoms I wonder how much variation there is in venom compsition from one population to the next.

Yet another thing, how many specimens were tested? Were they WC specimens from Africa, CB from Africa, donated by zoo or from private individuals here in the states? Also, would you by chance have exact localities? The reason I ask is because if from here in the states or even from a zoo, Aspidelaps lubricus have been intergraded alot with infuscatus and because infuscatus can naturaly look very close to lubricus you may not have had pure ssp. I dont belive it matters that much but everything I have researched seems to point to infuscatus being more toxic so I dont know if that would effect the outcome of your findings. Of cource im sure you varified that the ssp were pure in which case I dont mean to sound like im second guessing you.

With that being said, have you tested any infuscatus in your past or present research? I would definately be interested to hear about any differecne in make up and clincal effects, msotly because I keep several of both ssp:-D

Well BGF, thanks for takeing the time to read this.

All the best,
Jeremy

Hi mate

There would almost certainly be inter- and intra-specific variations in venom actions and potencies. Some may be more cytotoxic or others more neurotoxic, even a single population would almost have variation. Its been the virtually ubiquitous condition in other snakes.

We had a couple wild caught adults but I would expect other populations produce related (but not identical of course) sorts of venoms. There was nothing special about it. Bog standard African elapid. Cytotoxic and neurotoxic 3FTx (three-finger toxins). Variations between modes could vary with geography as much as by genetics. However, the venom contained more more and no less than what you'd expect of an African Naja. I would treat it as the same as a Naja mossambia/pallida/nigriceps level toxicity in the least but perhaps not as hot as Naja nivea.

In other words, its an elapid and can potentially smack you hard.

Cheers mate
B

Let me expand on the series of questions a wee bit... what sort of quantity are you speaking of in terms of yield in this species? I would think the numbers would be significantly lower than any of its cousins on the Dark Continent... Say, like on the order of 1/20th the yield of N. nigricollis?? or less??

I know cobra venom, at least Indian cobra venom, isn't something to take lightly, but how likely is something as small as a shield nose or coral, to deliver a lethal shot???

You da man, BTW...

Tom
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"Seek first to understand, then to be understood"

The key here is proportional to head size. A small Naja with a similar sized head will give around the same amount while of course an adult of a large species like Naja nigricollis will certainly give vastly more (like up to 20 times the amount) just as it gives vastly more than a small specimen of the same species.

Any snake, like Aspidelaps, that can give greater than 10 mgs of an elapid venom should be treated with caution. Commonsense there.

Take care mate
B

Dr. BGF,

Most appreciate the explanation you provided with regard to this subject matter!

Cheers,

Derek K.

No worries mate

Cheers
B

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NP.