Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Why is it that most available information that deals with various reptile collection pathogens comes from professional organizations (i.e. zoo, science centers, etc)? Most of these places have rigorous quarantine procedures and access to veterinary care yet if you went by the available information disease only hits them and never the breeder or hobbiest. Many threads that deal with these subjects seem to disappear for fear of tarnishing someone’s name. Using fear tactics to hurt other businesses is a whole other story....

Would you ever buy animals from a breeder who admitted that they had disease issues in the past that were resolved (and were kept at bay with random testing)? Is it better to remain in a state of denial that these things happen in the private industry? I find it much more offensive to think that people sweep these diseases under the rug and continue to produce and sell infectious animals.

As a whole the hobby industry need to become far more familiar with the known pathogens and start communicating better to help contain and "beat" some of the nastier pathogens. Crypto, paramyxo, and a few other viruses come to mind.

What does everyone else think?????

Interesting topic.
Good post.

Zoos generally do screen for pathogens.
This would likely account for them discovering infection more commonly that the common keeper.

Not all private collectors screen or treat as they should.

Speaking openly about the topic would certainly bring us closer to understanding the proper treatment for each problem.

Often it seems that some collectors do not know what specific medication each pathogen is sensitive to...often animals are blindly given the "shotgun treatment"... dosing with Panacur and Flagyl.
While Flagyl and Panacur serve an important purpose, where needed...
These medications are not effective for treating ALL pathogens.

Perhaps if more private keepers followed strict screening procedures and proper quarantine protocol...they might be surprised with the outcome.

I suspect it would be a great imporvement in the industry!

Part of making a purchase should be to ask questions of the seller, regarding the pathogen treatment regimen...including dosages and frequency of treatment....as well as quarantine protocol.

But once the animals are in your possesion...it is important to pay attention to the follow thru!

The cost of obtaining a new animal is not merely the price paid...but also the proper initial and long term care.
Vet checkups and treatment is a part of the cost that should be considered....BEFORE making the purchase of a new animal.

There are new medications (some still being experimented with)
that may prove useful in treating some of the "nasty" pathogens mentioned in the previous post.

As a community, we can all benefit from sharing useful information. The dialog is very important.
But the individual action...priceless!

Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611
970-255-9255

ps....not everyone who posts properly uses spell check either....

(David) lol.

Although I take a little pride in proper grammar an spelling...
I have spotted a few typos in my own post as well.
no worries...I think I made a clear point????

Hopefully I won't be crucified for my errors!
Ha ha.

Harlin.

grammar AND spelling!!! LOL.

Hi Harlin I agree with you about the testing ,I Quarantine every animal that comes into my collection as well as the rescue or should I say especially the rescue ,and all get fecal tests and a good examination . PS I think you may be on to something new here , instead of saying I made a type -o or a error in grammar , we can just say I made a David instead !! LOL!! And yes I CAN LAUGH AT MY SELF !!!! Thanks David

whatcha got???

./.......

I know a guy that got paramyxxawhatever it is,.........

he just killed them all cause you can't cure it.,,,he said......

.........

.....sick snakes die here alot of times......cheaper and easier and better in the long run..........
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.........

Well, first off I think that the largest majority of keepers are small hobbyist that don't have the training or resources to compile large amounts of data or to significantly battle these pathogens. Second, I don't think that trying to eradicate every germ that may be found in a other wise healthy collection is not only unrealistic, but may be counterproductive. I think that if you kept your snakes in a completely sterile environment with no contact to any germs they would be vulnerable to every germ that they may come in contact with. I feel the same way about regular treatment with antibiotics. First you not only run the risk of the pathogens becoming resistant to the medication but also would be killing off any beneficial bacteria. As for buying from someone that admitted to having had a problem in the past I don't know. But it may be better to know that someone once had a problem then to think that someone has never had a problem and let your guard down.

Jeff

dont sterilize your snakes enclosures. the immune system needs practice. clean is good, sterile is bad. imagine yourself in a sterile environment. any bug that you come in contact with will devistate you. cold, flu, anything. and the bugs WILL come.
joe

Although the average keeper cannot usually run the same diagnostics as a professional organization there is no excuse for not being able to buy a used microscope, slides, Fecasol and some good reference material (Douglas Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery and Elliott Jacobson's Infectious Diseases and Pathology of Reptiles: Color Atlas and Text are perfect examples). If you have over $1000 invested in a collection how can you justify not having the funds to have your setup somewhat professional?

I agree with the idea that we shouldn't try to achieve a sterile environment with our captives yet there is a huge difference between being over clean and not looking for highly infectious pathogens in your collection.

I rarely see large scale breeders showing off their medical diagnostic rooms on their respective sites (if they even exist). They love to show off their large facilities and crazy morphs but where is their pride in the biosecurity of their facility? I'm not saying that this doesn't exist with some breeders but it rarely is shown off and large scale folks who do this for a living have no excuse not to. I for one would be much more willing to purchase from someone who practices a little medical professionalism with their collection.

Thanks to the few of you that responded, it's nice to talk about something other than pattern and color morphs. Good luck this year!

Hey Phil,
Again, another good post.

Detecting and Treating a potentially serious Pathogen Infection and maintaining animals in a Sterilized Environment are two different issues.

"Autoclavable snakes" are like petri dishes waiting for the "fuzzy crap" to take over.
Animals need a strong immune system.
Natural exposure levels to common (not so evil) bacteria is not likely to be of such great concern.

A while back I experimented with a colony of Leopard Geckos.
These were geckos brought into a Vet's office by a disappointed owner. They had purchased the animals from a Pet Smart.
They were all infected with crypto.
Rather than destroy the animals, the vet asked if I would be interested in conducting an experiment with a relatively new medication.
This is a human drug which was used after hurricane Katrina to treat water borne illnesses.
It is a medcation produced by Romark Labs.

I set the animals up in a property that we were fixing up to be a rental. (This would help to isolate them from my collection!)
I began treatment on 1/2 of the animal.
The other half were the control group...untreated.

The results were not conclusive.
I suspect that the animals were too far gone by the time they were brought into the vet.
It would have been more interesting to conduct the experiment with animals that still had a fighting chance.

Sharing experiences and working together will certainly be more productive. Treatment of these pathogens is important to everyone involved in the hobby.

It is easier to treat a single animal....that to treat your entire collection.

And while I agree, the over use (abuse) of antibiotics is not the solution....proper use (dosage, frequency, and correct medication) is an important part of good husbandry.

Just my thoughts on the issue.
Take care,

Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611
970-255-9255

I have a microscope and slides and stain and do a lot of my own fecal testing but some times you come across things you can’t get the meds for without a vet visit , and its not hard to do this stuff if you have had some experience with it. I have been doing this cense I was a teen and worked at the Houston Zoo .But it is not for every one . Some people just don’t like that sort of thing and that doesn’t make them a bad keeper ,they may excel in other areas .thanks David

It may not be realistic to think we can or should eliminate all pathogens but there are some specific (the S in SPF) nasties that must be eliminated. The reptile industry brings together animals from all over the world and we have ended up with some super pathogens like IBD that who knows what the original non fatal host was and while boas can live with it for years (spreading all the way), pythons die quickly.

There are a number of diseases capably of quickly decimating collections (which I hear but can't confirm has happened to most large breeders at least once) regardless of how healthy their snakes’ immune systems are and these must be controlled. However, because of the business repercussions very few professional breeders will talk about diseases in their past. A notable exception was an early attempt by one breeder to stem the spread of IBD (which apparently didn't work as huge numbers of boas carry it now).

I agree ,and I would rather bye from a breeder that was upfront and honest and open about his experiences . As we all know if you have been in this business for very long and have a large # of reptiles then you will have these things happen and how you deal with them says a lot about the person . Thanks David

Most of the org.s you sited do research and as such they have to have a more sterol environment or there conclusions could be said to be tainted or influenced by other factors . But a sterol environment is not always a healthier one there are many good bacteria and other pathogens that are necessary to keep up a healthy immune system and to sustain life .David