Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Why does it seem that hypos are much finicky eaters than normals or aneries? I thought it was because of the necessary inbreeding, but I have an outcrossed hypo that just seems to be the most finicky in my collection. I was wondering, for those of you that have a few or more, if it seems to be a result of inbreeding, or if it seems to be a trait that is linked with the hypo gene? I know linked genes are possible, but not all that common. Just pondering.

I have several hypo and het hypos and three that are from a relatively outcrossed pair are good eaters. I also have a group of neos from Mike and I outcrossing his male #2 (produced from the original pair of hets) to my normal female, all of those are wolfing down as well. I have believed it to be related to the inbreeding for a long time. Remember, Mike's original pair were siblings from an individual that did not supply any history and nothing prior to Mike is known. They could already have been multiple generations inbred.

My thoughts are the eating problems are not directly tied to the hypo gene but were related to some gene(s) within the limited gene pool that results from inbreeding.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Whenever I'm suspicious of a trait/issue and want to link it to inbreeding, I like to follow it further and find out what the underlying cause is.

Behavior/temperament are definitely genetic in mammals and I've read enough that I'm theorizing that poor temperament is also genetic in reptiles. Since refusing to eat is a behavior, my first line of analysis will be to decide if this is an inherent behavior brought down from one or both parents or if this is a learned behavior. On the whole, the hypos and het hypos seem to begin life eating without issue so I'm going to grade that theory as improbable.

The next thing I'm going to look at is an underlying physical issue that causes the snake to be uncomfortable while eating. Assuming they begin life eating like all of the others, something makes things uncomfortable and they learn that eating causes them problems so they become reluctant feeders. We know from Mike's website that the original hypos had a tendency to puke and several were failure to thrive. Was this something environmental, did the hypos need different husbandry than the normals, or was this an internal genetic defect? My guess is that it may have been something genetic, but not something strong enough to be prevalent in the subsequent outcrossed generations.

I do know that there are several different examples of colors in mammals that carry with them a linked defect such as white/deafness, dilute/skin conditions, etc etc. It wouldnt be surprised at all if there was something deleterious linked to the hypomelanistic animals, but my guess is its nothing particularly life threatening since we havent seen more of it and there's definitely been enough inbreeding and linebreeding on the original animals.

Dave makes a really good point, we dont know how inbred those brother/sister original snakes were. I dont expect they were too inbred or there would have likely been a lot more problems in the subsequent inbreedings off of the original hypos. There are some really promising outcross projects going on right now, should be interesting to see what animals come of these projects in a few years.

Back to the snake tho...if it were my het hypo, I think I'd tweak the husbandry a bit and see if I could entice an appetite through a change in temps/enclosure size/humidity/prey size, etc. If he continues to be a lousy eater into adulthood, I'd probably look for a different animal for my program, but assuming he's perfect in all other ways, I'd be really careful of the type of linebreeding done on him and only use him on snakes of outcrossed lineage.

Rambling .02...

One thing you reminded me of, my problem hypo's (and all my other BRB's that are not stellar eaters for that matter) seem to chow down better on mice as opposed to rats. Maybe mice are closer to naturally occuring prey? Quite often those problem ones will refuse a rat but if a half dozen mice show up - munch munch munch munch munch munch and surprise, one full belly.

I even see that in my babies, many will eat anything, others are reluctant to take down a rat pink, even to the point of refusing to eat that week. I've had a hard time with my mouse colony this year and have been feeding mostly rat pinks and saving the mouse hoppers for those that refused the rat pinks. For the most part when I pull the rat pink and offer a mouse hopper - wham!!
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I've read that about the mice preference before. Rats must not be as tasty as mice, my weasels dont care for them either.

I've also read that they seem to prefer their food to have some hair like hoppers and will turn their noses up at a rat pink or even a peach fuzzy mouse. I'm ok with that, I prefer youngsters to feed something with a more mature skeleton anyhow.

I wonder if for your picky guys you washed the rats, then scented them with live mice if it'd change their attitudes towards rats. Maybe BRBs just like the stinky frito smell of mice!

Have you tried those african soft fur rats? I'm guessing they cant stand them...

LOL, sounds like work, bathing rats and scenting with mice!!

I've not tried the ASF rats, IMO not even worth trying. I'd expect they'd not prefer them as they are not part of the BRB's native habitat and I've heard they are tricker to breed with lower production. Since I raise both mice and rats not a big deal to me.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I agree! Easier to throw a handful fo XL mice in there than wash rat butts. I just wanted to see if you'd do it...lol.

I doubt they'd eat the ASFs. I hear they're very destructive as well. Not worth trying.

gfx wrote:

"Back to the snake tho...if it were my het hypo, I think I'd tweak the husbandry a bit and see if I could entice an appetite through a change in temps/enclosure size/humidity/prey size, etc. If he continues to be a lousy eater into adulthood, I'd probably look for a different animal for my program, but assuming he's perfect in all other ways, I'd be really careful of the type of linebreeding done on him and only use him on snakes of outcrossed lineage."

And I was getting ready to write almost the exact same thing. These snakes are all just a little different from each other in how they do things. Up or down a few degrees in temperature can sometimes get one to start eating better. Many of them pass up one food item and take another. I have always thought that live mice were the favorite meal for most BRBs. I do sometimes wash live pinky rats and then scent them with live or fresh killed mice. Like I wrote they are all individuals and do things differntly from one another. After some recent posts on here about feeding quail to a picky eater I have found that a few of my babies that do not take frozen and thawed mice will take frozen and thawed quail instead. BTW, I have 8 het hypos here and only one of them has had any feeding or puking problems. All the rest are chow hounds.
Jeff

I did try to feed her a rat. I had just received my shipment from rodentpro. I hope that there's not a whole bag in my freezer now with her name on it that she doesn't like... LOL! I'll try a mouse tonight, and if that doesn't work, then I'll move on to live. *fingers crossed*

She is not a het hypo, but a beautiful hypo that is developing a nice cherry color. I've tried to feed her now 3 times and she's only eaten once. It was the strangest thing too. I feed all mine f/t, but I dangle them on a pair of rubber tongs to entice them to eat. She struck at the rat, put it down and sat on it. 20 minutes later she left it so I warmed it up, thinking maybe I just didn't have it warm enough or something... again she struck it, and again she set it down. I've never had one do that before, usually if they strike they eat. I think her husbandry conditions are good. Her cage is showing a temp range of 80-75... exactly and she has a warm and cool hide as well as a water bowl to soak in. The only thing 'strange' about her is that she started developing this gorgeous cherry color the past couple days. Anyway, I'm going to try live prey tonight (rat pink) and see if I can just get her eating consistently.

I just thought it was strange that the weakest feeding tendencies seemed to come from my hypo female and my hypo male. Her 100% het sister eats wonderfully even right after being shipped to me. And I have 2 other hets that eat like pigs too! I just noticed something a bit strange. Hopefully she'll just eat... LOL!

I bet she wolfs on a mouse!!! Sounds just like my BRB's that don't like rats!!
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

>I bet she wolfs on a mouse!!! Sounds just like my BRB's that don't like rats!!

interesting what you have written about the hypos-being picky eaters. Of my anery and 3 poss hets, there have all been a pain, each has missed one of its 3 last meals, and one has missed the last 2. Im not too worried, they have been movedc twice since arriving as i have been moving houses. I have to find out if the het parents were siblings.

Also i have cracked a bit, and just paid for the male anery sibling to me female anery, and also another het female. So now my anery collection will soon stand at 1.1 anery, and 2.2 66% poss het anery

And while i was at it, i purchased 2.5 66% poss het new european line of hypos the girlfriend not exactly thrilled, but you only live once.

Now my problems, first i want to find out which of my poss hets anerys, are actually hets, will in a few years, try and couple the male anery to the 2 poss het females, and see what comes of it. Working out the poss het hypos, is gonna be a whole other problem, and im not really sure how to tackle it, they do have an amazing pattern though, and trying to breed the anery into them at a later stage could be interesting.

How has inbreeding worked with other peoples collections? Ie with my anery, i would like to breed the siblings together, first of all to make sure i just get anery babies and i know what im working with. But also to have a clutch, that i can then raise up, and breed to completely separate lines, to produce new lines.

Also what does line breeding actually mean?

Any ideas, about how to tackle, which goes with what? I know i have a few years to wait, but you cant help dreaming. I will also have the lockwood het hypos, to throw into the mix if needed
-----
Dave

1.2 Normal BRBs
0.1 Anery BRB
2.1 66% poss het anery BRB
1.1 het hypo BRB

Striking and then not eating isn't that unusual. Every week I have at least 1 or 2 that do that, but they seem to always eat after I warm their food up. One of my girls sometimes needs her rat warmed up three times before she will eat it. It's the ones that insist on live food that I find frustrating. I have one that is 20 months old and still hasn't switched to frozen thawed.

Dan

Well I went ahead and got her a nice live mouse hopper, and it's been in her cage for a couple hours now. Hopefully she'll eat it tonight!

But I still can't help but wonder about my 2 hypos being the one's with the weakest feeding response. Oh well, hopefully there's a reason for it and she'll be easier to feed in the future! Thanks for all the advise guys! I'm so glad she ate!

Congrats on getting her to eat. Snakes can go a long time without food, but it bothers us owners when they do not eat well.

Just be sure to not overfeed her - as this usually makes feeding problems worse. It took me 6 months for me to get one with a feeding problem onto a regular feeding schedule. Now after nearly a year, it seems to be one of my better feeders.
-----
Mike

7.13 BRB
1.2 Spotted Python
1.0 Cal. King

As far as the why of the hypo's being bad feeders it could just be bad luck. If you got them from someone like Mike Lockwood who has been, and I believe still is, actively outcrossing his hypo stock then I would say you were unlucky with those hypo's just happening to be poor feeders as occassionally happens in normals. If you got them from someone who is not actively outcrossing their hypo stock then it might not have been luck so much as the early issues with the hypo line may not have been bred out from this breeders stock. This is particularly atractive to someone more interested in the "investment" then in the hobby as you can breed two hypo's together and get whole litters of hypo's and hence a much greater selling price instead of breeding out to completely unrelated het's and only get 50% hypo's to sell.

I'm not saying anything about wherever you got the hypo's from but the source would determine to a degree how likely the offspring were to have feeding issues. That being said even the healthiest snake stock will every so often throw a troublesome specimen.

Sean.
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Along those lines, Mike has males he produced from the original two siblings, those are the least inbred of the non-outcrossed lines. And you hit the nail on the head re what a individual breeder is working toward, short term buck or long term healthy stock. Even less valuable is what Mike and I are both working on, outcrossing hypo's to normals for a litter of hets, no hypos in those litters.

My personal plan is to produce several litters of outcrossed hets, each of which I will save back only a few (typical is 1.2)as mainly tools but of course will be valuable as long term breeders. Each of these "sets" will be bred together one time (only 1.1) for one litter of F2 Hypo's and 66% poss hets. I'm looking for that small percentage of hypo's for my own collection and all but a small qty of the litter to be sold (lucky buyer as most of the work is already done) Those F2 hypos will be bred to other outcrossed lines, both hets and hypos.

For example, right now I have 1.2 "Ann" line hets from the breeding loan between Mike and I. Chuck and Chrissy will be bred to produce one litter. The hypo(s) I keep from that litter will be "Ann" line F2 Hypos. I plan on doing the same thing with other females like Betty. The other females (as much as possible) will be bred with different hypo males to create various lineage groups. Those groups will be crossed to produce relatively unrelated groups of babies.

LOL, long ramble huh? Can you tell I think about this shtuff all the time.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

That's exactly what I was attempting to do also... I got 2 females, 1 hypo and 1 het from Mike's tampa outcrossing (which produced an unexpected hypo... the girl that is reluctant to eat), 1 male het from the Ann outcrossing and 1 male hypo from his het female Ruby. These all have the same hypo dad, but 3 different moms... so eventually I should get some relatively outcrossed hypo and het babes... I can't wait!

BTW... Thanks Mike and Dave for doing most of the legwork for me, and I do feel pretty lucky to have these guys... All of them have something unique and stunning about their color! A lot of what else I've found out there just doesn't even come close... so to both of you... Nice Job

They are outcrossed and they are from Mike Lockwood. The one did eat, so I'm probably just a nervous new mom, but better safe than sorry with any live animal. The male hypo that I got always eats, but rarely shows interest in eating right away and rarely strikes his food. I just thought it was so peculiar that all the animals I got from Mike were 1/2 or total siblings and the ones that eat like pigs are the hets and the ones that are a bit reluctant were the hypos. Oh well, as long as they do eat, I don't care if I have to wash the rats and bathe them in mouse scent, go to the pet store and get them live and sit there and wait till they kill the prey so they are not harmed, or do a modified rain dance in front of their cage to make them hungry... as long as they eat! LOL

Now she's in shed... I feel dumb... Oh well, better worry too much than not enough with these guys!

BRB will eat while in shed - especially if it was a smaller meal. I have had one that shed while eating.
-----
Mike

7.13 BRB
1.2 Spotted Python
1.0 Cal. King