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Out of curiosity...

Hollychan Apr 04, 2008 08:03 PM

Just how many generations would we have to go through captive bred snakes before domesticating them? Or would it even be possible to domesticate them eventually? I know they do have limited intelligence, so maybe it's not possible to ever domesticate them?

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Holly

0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Lizzie Borden) (missing )
1.0 Florida Kingsnake (Eddie Gein)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Black Cat (Shadowfax)
1.0 Egyptian Arabian (Bagan)
1.0 Tennessee Walking Horse (Durango)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

Replies (19)

DMong Apr 04, 2008 09:32 PM

Holly, April Fools has been over with for several days now!..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

MikeRusso Apr 04, 2008 09:38 PM

I have a 5th generation rosy boa that likes to watch Seinfeld and has recently learned how to use a litter box.

~ Mike Russo

JKruse Apr 05, 2008 12:54 AM

.....

JK

Jeff Schofield Apr 05, 2008 12:26 AM

A trained snake.....insert your own punchline

Fish_Demon Apr 05, 2008 03:24 AM

I consider something to be domesticated when it has enough genetically-originating physical and/or behavior changes from being kept in captivity that it is incapable of surviving in the wild without human interference. It does not have much to do with intelligence, as animals such as silkworms are generally considered to be domesticated and are not intelligent at all (their domestication is largely physical - I've read they can't crawl more than 12 inches in search of food).

Most domesticated vertebrates have a combination of heritable physical and behavioral differences that set them apart from their ancestors. For example, domestic cats and dogs have comparatively smaller brains than African Wildcats and Gray Wolves, respectively. They also come in a wide variety of human-created shapes and sizes that would almost certainly be deleterious in nature.

As for snakes, I am not sure if any can truly be considered domesticated (yet). If you released into the wild a normal cornsnake derived from lines that have been in captivity for decades, would it be able to survive? I would say most likely yes, as there is little or genetic difference between that snake and its wild counterparts. Physically and mentally the two are essentially the same.

But then we have the morphs... Would a high-end amel bloodred corn be able to survive in the wild? Probably not. Some morphs would probably be able to survive (such as aneries or genetic stripes) and would eventually just blend in with the natural population. I suppose it is reasonable to say that some types of snakes are "half-domesticated".

But thinking about the question further, does it even matter if snakes are "domesticated" or not? Consider the reasons other species of animals were domesticated - more flesh (for meat), easier training, companionship, etc. How many of us eat, ride, or socialize with our snakes? In other words, we really have no reason to domesticate our snakes, because they are (for the most part) harmless to us and there is nothing specific we need them to do.

The definition of "domesticated" is going to vary from person to person, though, so I'm willing to bet other people are going to say something completely different from my post.
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- Natalie
(San Francisco Bay Area)

1.0 Banded California King
1.0 Mexican Black King
1.0 Goini Kingsnake
1.0 Bay of LA Rosy Boa
0.1 San Ignacio Rosy Boa
0.1 Ortiz Rosy Boa
2.3 Kenyan Sand Boas
0.1 Saharan Sand Boa
1.2 Rubber Boas
0.1 Pickering's Gartersnake

brhaco Apr 05, 2008 08:27 AM

Well, by that definition a cat is not domesticated-since feral cats survive quite well in the wild. This by the way is something I've always supected about cats-mine at least don't ACT very domesticated!

I don't believe any snake is yet domesticated-even the most extreme morphs still have all the instincts to hunt, hide and do well in the wild. Their color might make them more subject to predation-but otherwise they would live quite well if released as hatchlings.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

bizkit421 Apr 05, 2008 09:40 AM

feral cats don't survive in the "wild" quite as well as one mighjt think... They tend to starve pretty quickly if they're not able to raid a trash can or find food set out for them or other cats... Around were I live, if a cat doesn't have a house or barn to hide in every night, they become raccoon food pretty quickly
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings
1.0 Brooksi
0.1 Red Belly Piranha
1.0 Australian Shepherd

Fish_Demon Apr 05, 2008 02:36 PM

Yes, most feral cat colonies are located near cities and supported by humans that feed them and give them shelter (I'm not saying there aren't some exceptions to that, though). Really the only place I can think of where domesticated cats and dogs run free in large numbers without human support is in Australia... Domesticated cats introduced by European settlers and domestic dogs introduced by Aborigines (now known as Dingos) have adapted pretty well to the environment, and have changed it drastically, and not for the better. Dingos are thought to be a major contributor in the extinction of the Thylacine (Tasmanian Tiger) on the mainland, and cats are currently wreaking havoc on native small animal populations.

Why were these species able to survive in Australia? Take a look at its native vertebrate fauna - mainly reptiles, marsupials, and rodents. Most small marsupials, rodents, and reptiles fall easy prey to feral cats and dogs, with the exception of some monitors and highly venomous snakes. The marsupial carnivores that previously were at the top of the food chains in Australia (which includes Thylacines, quolls, numbats, etc.) were unable to compete with our domesticated cats and dogs because they have smaller, simpler brains and less efficient reproductive methods than placental mammals. If the continent did have some sort of native feline or canine, I can guarantee that our domesticated cats and dogs would not have established such successful populations there.
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- Natalie
(San Francisco Bay Area)

1.0 Banded California King
1.0 Mexican Black King
1.0 Goini Kingsnake
1.0 Bay of LA Rosy Boa
0.1 San Ignacio Rosy Boa
0.1 Ortiz Rosy Boa
2.3 Kenyan Sand Boas
0.1 Saharan Sand Boa
1.2 Rubber Boas
0.1 Pickering's Gartersnake

brhaco Apr 05, 2008 03:52 PM

Domestic dogs and cats have in the wild is competition from better-adapted wild carnivores like bobcats, coyotes, wolves and foxes. Many islands worldwide (which lack native carnivorous mammals) have thriving colonies of feral cats and (sometimes) dogs that do very well without human support.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Fish_Demon Apr 06, 2008 03:26 AM

Yes, that's what I was getting at, that really the only places where feral cats and dogs survive without human support is in locations where they easily outcompete the native predators or, as you mentioned, locations where they have no competition at all. Thankfully this can only happen in a relatively small percentage of land on Earth, though the damage these animals do can be irreparable.
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- Natalie
(San Francisco Bay Area)

1.0 Banded California King
1.0 Mexican Black King
1.0 Goini Kingsnake
1.0 Bay of LA Rosy Boa
0.1 San Ignacio Rosy Boa
0.1 Ortiz Rosy Boa
2.3 Kenyan Sand Boas
0.1 Saharan Sand Boa
1.2 Rubber Boas
0.1 Pickering's Gartersnake

brhaco Apr 06, 2008 08:52 AM

The last few specimens of the Stephen Island wren were killed by a lighthouse keeper's pet cat!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

FunkyRes Apr 06, 2008 10:45 AM

That's true of many invasive predators.
If they can't compete with the native wildlife, they don't do very well.

There are however places where feral cats do just fine without humans.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

FunkyRes Apr 06, 2008 08:38 AM

There are many black bears that can no longer survive without human trash. That why parks tell you not to feed the bears - it ruins them. They start to eat human trash and teach their young to eat human trash.

That hardly makes them domestic.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Fish_Demon Apr 06, 2008 06:44 PM

These behavioral changes are not heritable, though, they are only because the animal has been conditioned to not be able to survive without human support. On the same note, tigers kept in zoos their entire lives would not be able to survive in the wild if they were released, but I doubt anyone would call them domesticated.

If, however, the black bears lingered around human settlements over thousands of generations and accumulated genetic mutations that made them unable to hunt, then they might be considered domesticated.
-----
- Natalie
(San Francisco Bay Area)

1.0 Banded California King
1.0 Mexican Black King
1.0 Goini Kingsnake
1.0 Bay of LA Rosy Boa
0.1 San Ignacio Rosy Boa
0.1 Ortiz Rosy Boa
2.3 Kenyan Sand Boas
0.1 Saharan Sand Boa
1.2 Rubber Boas
0.1 Pickering's Gartersnake

FunkyRes Apr 06, 2008 07:57 AM

I consider something to be domesticated when it has enough genetically-originating physical and/or behavior changes from being kept in captivity that it is incapable of surviving in the wild without human interference.

The the domestic cat has not been domesticated.
And the domestic pig has not been domesticated.
And the domestic horse has not been domesticated.

Feral populations of them most certainly exist.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Fish_Demon Apr 06, 2008 06:48 PM

Exceptions to that statement were discussed in posts following my original one.
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- Natalie
(San Francisco Bay Area)

1.0 Banded California King
1.0 Mexican Black King
1.0 Goini Kingsnake
1.0 Bay of LA Rosy Boa
0.1 San Ignacio Rosy Boa
0.1 Ortiz Rosy Boa
2.3 Kenyan Sand Boas
0.1 Saharan Sand Boa
1.2 Rubber Boas
0.1 Pickering's Gartersnake

Upscale Apr 05, 2008 06:24 PM

I am one who does consider captive produced snakes to be domesticated. I think when a snake is born into having no fear of man and quickly adapts to captive maintenance, it is no longer a wild animal. It is fairly typical for captive produced snakes to be naturally (or unnaturally) calm, better feeders, etc than wild caught of the same type. That basically is domestication. Not going to be able to compare a snake (or bug as noted in an earlier post) and mammal in the same way. Just comparing wild undomesticated snakes with the exact same snake captive produced, you could see differences that you could call a form of domestication as it would apply to a snake. Just my 2$ Hey, where’s the “cents” symbol on this thing??? Stupid keyboard…

brhaco Apr 05, 2008 06:52 PM

if I compare one of my captive produced kingsnakes to babies hatched out from a gravid female caught from the wild, I see no difference in temperament or adaptation to captivity. So to me that says it is not a genetic difference, but one of behavioural plasticity in the wild genes-basically any baby snake exposed to humans and captive conditions from birth shows the same tameness and hardiness.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

FunkyRes Apr 06, 2008 08:01 AM

I have two wild caught pac gophers that are a hell of a lot calmer than many several generation captive bred pac gophers, and they were calmer when taken from the wild.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

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