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thermometer and thermostat probes

saagbay Apr 06, 2008 09:27 AM

i just recently picked up a a cheap thermostat to try out and get a feel for how it works. and i think i like it for the most part except for tow things.

one being it is an on/off stat, i dont know if anyone else sees this too but when the room temp is warmer (like in the middle of the day) i tend to see the heat go on and off constantly. i am heating with a 100w eco-terra heat glo (a red heat bulb). now i dont know about this for sure but it seems to me that the constant on and off would kill the lifespan of the bulb.... has anybody seen this or am i way off in thinking this?

my other question has to do with the probe, i know the probe has to be at the bottom of the cage (where the snake stays) to be accurate. how should the probe be properly set up? the reason i ask is because i went in to check on my BCI after installing the thermostat, and the cages temps where lower than i expected. well that was because she was laying on the thermo probe causeing it to switch off. so again has anyone else seen this? is there a way to avoid that or just accept that it happens
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

Replies (8)

avtdocz Apr 06, 2008 02:55 PM

The saying you get what you pay for holds true with these types of lower end on/off thermo's... proportional is the way to go, ( I use Helix, but there are plenty out there on the market that can do just as well )

The sudden on and off of the bulb can wear down the filament faster in the bulb... solutions? Get a proportional... or... buy a ceramic emitter ( no filament to burn out, just a coil )... and just use a red light for night time viewing plugged into a night time only timer...

OK... as for your probe placement... I place my probes about a half inch or so into the substrate... the weight of the animal packs down the substrate nicely, and keeps the probe in place... Now it would sound like you're using over head heat so you might want to try placing the probe on top of the snakes hide... or maybe the roof of the hide (FYI I'm using a UTH supplemented by a small over head lamp for ambient air temps. Both are plugged into the same thermostat, works great, mimics natural heating a little better than just using over head or just using UTH's)

Hope this helps... I expect Jeremy and Chris to add anything I might have missed...

Karl
1.0 Ball Python ( Xavier )
1.0 BRB ( Hue )

~ Reptile Joke of the Day ~
A father and son were at a reptile show, viewing all the animals. They came to a booth that was selling Egyptian Uromastyx and the son asked the father,

"Dad, what is that?" and the father replied,

"That's a turtle that has crawled out of it's shell"

Bighurt Apr 06, 2008 03:52 PM

Karl, I love that sayin', wish my wife understood it a little better.

(to Stephen)

However when it comes to temp control its varies a lot, and mostly because of the user.

I say that because each type of control can be matched with a type of user, and the heat element, in my case heat tape.

For example, every cage I have now is run off a dimmer or rheostat. This type of control is cheap and depending on your setup mildly easy to use. Modern dimmers are essentially a voltage on/off type system they turn on and off dozens of times a minute, all to keep the output at an equal level.

The benifit of the dimmer is the they are cheap enough that you can equip every cage in a rack orevery cage in a setup fast. Also you can turn off un used cages or racks so there is no wasted energy heating an empty cage.

The draw backs are as the room heats up the cages heat up so there is no upper limit. This means the room has to be very stable or the user must monitor the cages very often. Even in a stable room minor adjustments will have to be made daily no matter what. Another down fall is that its hard to tell if its on or off, there is no light to indicate function. Lastly old dimmers when they lost power reset themselves to full open, this is not the case with modern dimmers.

On/Off T-Stats are identical to Dimmers, except they are based off temperature via a probe rather than the current flowing through them. The benifit here is for a user that doesn't have the time everyday to check and adjust each cage. While more expensive than dimmers they can be used for blocks of cages. However only the cage in which the probe is placed will match the settings, cages on the floor or those against the ceiling will see minor changes either cooler or hotter than the mean setting. Ususally in the case where an entire rack or stack of cages is run off a one T-Stat, its better to place the thermostat probe in the middle.

The disadvantages to an on/off T-stat is that the constant on-off cyle causes colling and heating cycels within the cages. By the time the probe cools and turns the unit back on it may be some time for the element to respond heat up and rais ethe temps. Conversly when the element drives the temps high enough for the probe to turn the unit off, it may be some time before the element cools and the temp begins to fall. This cycel effect can be hard to adjust, and can be hard on the element particularly lighting. Lastly some cheaper units are known to fail in the on position and the run away voltage can bake the animal.

Proportional T-Stats are the last option on the list. They provide a constant current to the element, virtually eliminating the cycle effect. To do this as teh probe senses the temperature drawing close to the high, it loweres the voltage so the elemnt doesn't heat up as much. Conversly as the temps approach the lower limit the probe increases the voltage to the element so the temp doesn't fall below. It still has a cycle effect but the fact the element never switches off means there will never be exostensially cooling do to the element warming up. It also narrows the cycle to within a few degrees of the mean.

The disadvantages are cost ery expensive and some of the cheaper models are know to fail, but the failure doesn't cause runaway heating, just none at all. Which with some species could mean death just the same.

There are newer units like the Herpstat Pro that have 4 probes so the single unit that can control 4 cages. And On/Off T stats like certain Ranco models can be outfitted with 2 probes to control the limits to heating a cooling cycles.

If I was you I wouldn't worry about a T-Stat for a light bulb, any model will cause un needed strss on the filiment. The best bet would be a dimmer. Or use a ceramic emitter like Karl suggested.

As far as probe placement, you don't need to place teh probe at the bottom. However you will need to use a temp sensor like a heat gun to adjust the unit. By this I mean if you place the probe at the top of the enclosure and it reads XXX and the desired temp at the bottom is YYY. You will need to change the mean temp on the unit so that the temperature at the bottom achieves your desired ZZZ temp. You just can't use the displaied temp on the unit as teh actual temp.

For example in a rack if I place the probe next to the tub on the heat element in may read 90°F, but inside the tub it may read 88° if my desired temp inside teh cage is 90° I will have to increase teh temp on the unit to 92° to allow for the change.

Probably more info than you need but I was on a break.
Cheers
-----
Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

0.1 Snow "Khal" RTB
1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.0 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
3.1 Red Bearded Dragon's
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0.1 Child

saagbay Apr 06, 2008 07:04 PM

no thats awesome, allot of good info there thanks for that.

i know what you mean about every user is different. thats a good idea putting the thermostat probe anywhere in the cage and adjust it accordingly to get the right temps, i do have a temp gun so i will be able to do that.

okay so more specific on my heating ideas, i will have a stack of 4 cages 4'l x 2'd x 16"t, two of these will be divided in half. these will be made out of 3/4" melamine with a 1/4" (melamine or PVC) floor. i will use three 16" strips of 4" flexwatt to cover about 1/3 of the whole floor. the flexwatt will be wired directly to a dimmer switch then to a thermostat.

the idea behind that is so the temps can be controled by the dimmer and if on a hot summer day the room warms up too much the thermostat will kick in and shut it all down, like a fail safe.

now i am going to have a stack of 4 so i will have 4 of these setups. thats is the reason i would rather use cheap thermostats and dimmer switches to keep cost down. i just cant afford 4 herpstats or helixs

my main concern is will that amount of flexwatt be enough or will i need an additional heat source
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

Bighurt Apr 06, 2008 08:00 PM

I don't kno whow you are going about cage construction but the animal should be in no way allowed to contact flexwatt.

However I would just use a thinner replaceable floor and attach the flexwatt to the underside of that, perhaps using some reflectix to radiate the heat towards the cage.

Chris Harper has mentioned it a thousand tmes eaither cut a square out of the bottom the sixe of the element you choose to use or staple teh floor directly to the front back and sides and be the entire bottom.

Either way the flexwatt should be around the size of the entire animal when basking. Two much and you don't provide a relief or a cool side and too little and your underheating a large boid.

Good Luck
-----
Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

0.1 Snow "Khal" RTB
1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.0 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
3.1 Red Bearded Dragon's
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0.1 Child

saagbay Apr 06, 2008 08:32 PM

i have 3/4 melamine sides top and back with a face frame. i am going to cut a dato in the sides and the back to receive the 1/4" floor, the flexwatt will attach to the under side of this to work like regular belly heat. i figure 1/3 of the floor being heated would be a good ratio big enough yet not too big, only i dont know if this is enough to heat the cage or if it will just create a hot spot

i have heard Chris mention cutting out the floor to do that, i kinda like this this other way a little better as i can set the dato a half inch up to create an air space plus it makes it easy to run cords out the back

however if you think that 1/4" of material is too much to heat through maybe i should rethink design...
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

Bighurt Apr 06, 2008 08:52 PM

Maybe you should build a test subject....

I heat through 1/8 tile board and it runs near max just to get the right temps.

It also depends on what the 1/4" is made out of PVCX shouldn't be a problem, MDF maybe a problem.

Cheers
-----
Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

0.1 Snow "Khal" RTB
1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.0 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
3.1 Red Bearded Dragon's
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0.1 Child

saagbay Apr 06, 2008 06:39 PM

yeah i do know of helix however they don't exactly fit in my budget.
and as far as the on/off ones i don't know much about them so i got myself a cheap one to try out... however i don't know if it would make much a difference getting a 20$ one or a 60$ i have feeling they all work the same, thats why i got the cheap one. so its not the "cheap" part that I'm worried about

i do like CHE, but the one reason i did go with the heat glow is for the night viewing. i also would like to keep the heating simple, and avoid multiple heating sources and timers.

the set up i have now inst going to say this way for much longer. in the next couple months i plan to switch out my glass cages for melamine. and i think i have heating mostly figured with a few little details to work out. i think im going to use flexwatt with both a thermostat and a dimmer switch in line working together. the only thing i dont know is if the flexwatt will be enough alone.
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

markg Apr 08, 2008 12:46 PM

You are actually right on in your thinking. The full ON then OFF (where the filament cools considerably before going ON again) does affect filament life. So much depends on the cage setup though that it is very hard to make generalizations.

One generalization that can be made is this: An insulated cage does alot for extending bulb life compared to having an open screen top. This holds true no matter what temp controller you use.

All things being equal (meaning cage setup and bulb) using a proportional controller will result in less energy used and longer bulb life compared to an ON/OFF controller. The million dollar question is how much. Very hard to say, but I would guess much less than 10% savings. So for a few bulbs, it is minimal effect on your wallet. If you had 1000 bulbs, then you could argue the cost savings.

As far as performance, proportional is best for holding a more constant temperature.

Your dimmer idea in-line with an ON/OFF controller is good when the bulb wattage is higher than you would like, or as a fail safe overtemp limit. The ON/OFF controller must use a relay for this to work. If it uses a solid-state device instead of a relay, forget it. For the relay type (most are, because relays are cheap), at very low settings of the dimmer, the heater, once switched OFF, will likley not come back on until the dimmer is turned up a bit. That is an effect of the semiconductor trigger in the dimmer not having enough voltage once the ON/OFF controller switches it OFF. Not usually a problem if you keep the dimmer above 40-50% power, which is well within what you will do anyway.

When you put a dimmer in-line with an ON/OFF controller, put the dimmer bewteen the controller and the heater. You want the controller to turn power ON and OFF to the dimmer. The other way (ON/OFF controller between dimmer and heater) will work too but has no advantage and in fact has the disadvantage of not being able to feed multiple dimmers with a single ON/OFF controller.
-----
Mark

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