Reptile & Amphibian Forums

care and temperment wise, what non-venemous snakes could prepare me to own a rhinocerus viper and the vipers of the genus atheris?

Years and years of captive care of non-venomous snakes.
Then multiple years of shadowing someone who owns the species your interested in. I've been keping herps for the better part of 10 years and still don't think I have it down enough to expand into hots, as much as I would love to own some Klauberi or Horridus.
Nate

thank you for the info . but is there a substitute that is alike in both care and termperment wise to rhino vipers, vipers of the genus atheris and bothrops(i know i just added this one but they're cool to)

>>...but is there a substitute that is alike in both care and termperment wise to rhino vipers...

Sort of, as far as temperment.
They're almost exactly like a ball python...with a hand granade in it's mouth.

Seriously, some experience working with an established keeper will help you understand why a rhino viper's temperment is almost irrelevant. The short version is that you should never have any part of your body within striking distance, and nothing you do with a nonvenomous snake will realy get across the consequences of forgetting that just once.

I would estimate that close to half of the keeper deaths I've heard about over the last 5 years have been from Bitis species (and a few more from Bothrops).

This is NOT the place to start.

There are some things you can do to get a head start. Getting a blood python and raising it using hooks and never your hands would help you gain dextarity with hooks and dealing with a heavy, thick-bodied snake, but it's still no substitute for training and experience with snakes that are dangerous enough to teach you not to get sloppy but still less likely to kill you if you do.

For Bothrops, take what I said about Bitis and add "and a firecracker up it's butt".
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

I'll second Larry's blood recommendation, but take it a step further. Once you've raised a [hopefully spunky] blood python, buy yourself a w.c. adult that's known for a bad 'tude. There's a world of difference in handling a cbb and raised snake, versus handling a wild one. See how well you can maintain it on a hook. See if it nails you a time or two - and think to yourself each time that you very likely would be dead (see the case of the OH firefighter a few years ago who was killed by his nasicornis). Hey, for effect, any time the snake rips your flesh open with its teeth, pour lemon juice or vinegar on it just to simulate a fraction of what a venomous bite may actually feel like - for the first minute or two anyway.

You could do all that and be as ready as ever - to handle nasty blood pythons. In all honesty, the Bitis I've worked with were MUCH easier than working with any testy blood...most of the time. Of course it's those rare occasions, where the snake decides to do a somersault and land its fangs in your forearm that make all the difference in the world. Those are what you have to be prepared for, and with snakes like those in the Bitis genus, the only 'warning' sign you may ever get will be an unnoticeable movement of the pupil. You may not hear any huffing or puffing, the snake may just let you have it.

Obviously this is just all conjecture, but that's what you're wanting isn't it? Or would you rather I said blood pythons, water snakes, or ball pythons will prepare you completely for dealing with Bitis vipers? It's really too bad it won't, or they may be a lot more competent keepers out there. It's also too bad human skin isn't impenetrable to snake fangs though eh?

As for Bothrops...I won't even go there. I've never kept them myself, and I've heard far too many extremely competent keepers tell tails of nearly wetting themselves after a close encounter with a ticked off asper.

If you decide to go through with venomous keeping, in which case I hope it's legal where you live, try not to ever get ahead of yourself. I did it, and fortunately lived to tell about it, but others might not be as lucky. On that note, best of luck in your endeavors, whatever they may be.
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

thank you for the info. how big a cage does a blood python need? and i have read they are really expensive is this true? and i know this is the wrong forum but it seems to me you people have kept blood pythons plus i ask that due to the fact that space and money are a problem for me. and i am a complete begginer(exept for 2 garter snakes) and have read these aren't the best starter snakes is this true?

True. CBB bloods can make great captives, but w.c. ones can be nightmares. I have a friend who doesn't even blink at handling his adult eastern and western diamondbacks, but groans every time he has to clean out the blood cage. He has a w.c. adult female Sumatran, and that snake will launch herself across the floor at you. Fortunately, cbb ones can be quite pleasant. I had an adult albino male a few years ago who had a perfect temperament.

As for cage size, these are sedentary predators. The biggest blood in the world would have more room in a 6' enclosure that it would ever use. Most are perfectly fine in a typical 4' herp-specific enclosure for their entire lives. The only tricky part about keeping them is maintaining the proper humidity without keeping the enclosure too damp. Dampness promotes mold and bacterial growth, which very quickly leads to a sick snake. Sometimes it makes me wonder how they even make it in the wild...but of course they aren't under the constant stress of a big warm primate staring at them on a daily basis in the wild.

So, since you admitted that you are a complete beginner, I just have to ask: how long are you planning to give yourself before the foray into venomous? I just really can't impress upon you strongly enough how easily a rhino will put you under ground, and not even in a quick or painless way either. With such a virulent mixture of myo-, hemo-, and cardiotoxins, that would have to be one of the least pleasant ways to go. Even if you were to survive a bite, the envenomation could lead to permanent grotesque disfigurement, failed kidneys and the resultant dialysis (which basically means your life expectancy then goes on for maybe another 20 years if you're strict in your routine), and various other blood work problems, nerve damage, etc. I'm not saying this to scare you away from enjoying these amazing creatures, just to try to get you to realize the gravity of a bite from an animal like that. And they can do it, literally, faster than the blink of an eye.

Please get a mentor, and please get some experience before taking the plunge.
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

thank you for the info. how much did your blood python cost? and could you tell what their growth rates are like. and if you wold like me to take these questions to the blood python forum i will.

It'd be a good idea to go to the blood forum and get answers from really experienced keepers. I've only kept a few.

Cost varies all over the map. Expect to pay around $80-150 for a cbb baby, depending on looks and locale. Some mutations though go for thousands.

Growth rates depend on feeding regimine. I would expect them to reach general adult sizes (3-6') within 3 or 4 years. You have to be cautious feeding them too much though lest they become obese and die from kidney failure.
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

i did decide to take this post to the blood python forum but i'm waiting for a reply. do different color mutations grow to different sizes? if so wich one is the smallest?

Color mutations are just genetic anomalies that generally only affect the outward appearance (phenotype) of the animal. They have no bearing on how large or how quickly the animal grows. If enough inbreeding has been done to expose the anomalies, however, there can be other negative effects due to more recessive genes being exposed - such as heavy inbreeding depression, eyelessness, scalelessness, various nonfunctioning organs, etc. Fortunately in reptiles, inbreeding can be tolerated rather well.
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

What I'm feeling is "dude, you're an idiot", but I'll try and say something more constructive.

1) Why don't you consider starting with something a) native, and b) probably sublethal. That way, in the event of a bite, it'll be possible (not certain, just possible) for you to receive some sort of care (beyond basic supportive care like ventilation, blood transfusions, etc) at your local hospital, without a lot of life-flight drama, draining the nearest zoo's supplies, etc.
2) The principal Bitis and Bothrops in the pet trade have devastating bites. Really - look at what kill and maim people, in significant numbers, in Africa and Latin America. There's no specific antivenom for Atheris and by the few available accounts, their bite is no cakewalk either. What the hell are you thinking? Are you thinking?
3) Work your way into it. Start with something you can catch locally, that isn't absolutely likely to kill or disfigure you (e.g., no Mohaves, no SE canebrakes, no EDBs, no WDBs).
4) Copperheads and pigmys are your friends. If you live out west try sidewinders or blacktails. If you need an exotic, try a jumping viper. These are all great animals that you have a decent chance of surviving a mistake with.
5) Do some research on snakebite. Look at some pictures, read some clinical accounts. "Cool" it IS NOT.
6) You "threw in Bothrops because it's cool"??? WHAT THE FUXX?!?!? I don't think there's a snake that scares me more than Bothrops asper; do you even know why I say that? If you don't you'd better clue in.

I really never do this (jump on people in public) but seriously, the questions people ask here can drive one insane.

DO NOT THREATEN MY PRIVILEDGE TO KEEP VENOMOUS SNAKES! YOU DO SO IF/WHEN YOU JUMP IN THE DEEP END WITHOUT KNOWING HOW TO SWIM!

Seriously,
Jimi

i was not planning on getting a venomous snake any time soon i just was wondering if there was a non venomous substitute(or rear fanged with extremley minute venom)for the snakes i thought were interesting and again i am not planning on getting any thing venomous for a long time and i didn't know what forum to post this on so i posted here so if there is a better forum may you please tell me wich one and i'll use that one for this subject.

This is the right forum. If you had stated at the beginning that you were not planning on getting anything for a long time, you probably would have gotten more useful answers. Your original post gave no hint of that, and we DO get people here who want to get a black mamba as their first venomous.

My advice stands though. Any practice with hooks will help, but hooking up with a mentor who keeps venomus will teach you ten times more in the same time.
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

so then should i start with a non-venomous thick bodied snake like a ball python or a small to medium sized boa and use hooks to handle it? with that said what slender bodied snake could i get so i can learn how to handle slender snakes? and what snake could i get to learn how to handle a snake the size of bothrops because i don't know how big they get? and i'm sorry if i made it sound like i was getting a venomous snake soon.

Ideally you want to find a non-venomous snake that's gonna freak out on a hook from time to time. This way, when you're handling it, you'll learn to handle the worst-case scenario with a hot snake. No touching!! Hooks only. Maybe tongs....but they can be a touchy issue since crushing is a possiblity when you're all amped up on adrenaline (which should be a GOOD thing in some ways.....the adrenaline I mean. If you arent at least a bit nervous about it, you shouldnt be doing it)

Any idiot can put a rubber snake on a hook and practice handling. You'll want to have something that will force you to become better with your hook skills. Go out and catch a racer and handle one of those. They're fiery and slippery on a hook too. This should put you in "Oh CRAP!" mode when you're handling it.
My rule of thumb from the instant my hot cages open up is "If the snake is 3 feet long, I stay about 3 feet away from it" This figures for about 1/2 the body length for a strike reach, PLUS some extra safety.
Knowing snake body language is absolutely crucial, I've learned that in the last 10 years or so I've kept non-venomous snakes, usually at least 10 or so more at a time. However.....with the Bitis it almost doesnt apply because they're ambush predators, so their body posture doesnt indicate their intentions. You know that feeling you get when someone is winding up a jack in the box? That little twinge of anxiety in your stomach you get wondering when the Jack is gonna pop out? Thats what it's like handling any Bitis. You NEVER know when it's gonna blow up and should always act accordingly. People get bit from carelessness because the snake is a superior predator.

I think I've said enough. I only have about 3 years venomous experience, and dont want to try and sound like a pro, but I'd like to think my advice is good. My bite record is perfectly clean up to this day.
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Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

None: there is no substitute for the real deal - everything is different....your alertness, caution, respect for the snake, mental preparation, etc. As others have suggested, mentor under and experienced keeper who does things the right way. Master the use of the hook, tongs, shields, scoops, etc. when working with your non venomous snakes. Make it a habit to never ever get nailed - that could spell your life with a real hot. Learn all of the nuances of working with hots including even the simple things like how to open a cage door properly (laugh but many folks have gotten tagged by not opening cages properly). Hope that helps.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
THe Wildlife Discovery Center

>>care and temperment wise, what non-venemous snakes could prepare me to own a rhinocerus viper and the vipers of the genus atheris?
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

what is the best non-venomous or rear fanged(with minute venom) snake to learn hook handeling with?

Great Post Rob!

Randal

Al, Larry and Chance, good info as well...
Just want to clear a few things up...
Bitis are not ticking time bombs just waiting to go off in your face... They are not hard to read and the simple act of staying out of strike range is not hard to do... Certainly individuality within any species varies, but should not be a problem to adjust to...

There is no "rush" after years of working with hots and being nervous or on edge will surely get you tagged before being confident and cool during handling will...

Common scence and general knowledge of reptiles and husbandry will take you a long way in this hobby... Getting as much info and help as you can from other venomous keepers would be the best thing to add to your common scence... If you can find a good mentor, that would be even better...

THERE IS NO NON-VENOMOUS SPECIES THAT WILL PREP YOU TO KEEP VENOMOUS!!!