Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi guys, I thought it would be cool to show you people some rainbow boas we have here in Brazil.

Marajó Island, Epicrates cenchria cenchria:

Mato Grosso, Epicrates cenchria cenchria:

Pernambuco, Epicrates cenchria assisi:

And the least frequently seen, from Espírito Santo and Bahia,
Epicrates cenchria hygrophilus (first adult, and then neonate):

Pretty cool,

What's the story? Are those all wild caught from specific localities?
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

GORGEOUS!! I'd like to know the story also!

I'll third that, what't the story?

Great looking group of rainbows!!!!!!
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Great PICs. Your asissi PIC looks exactly like mine do. Your light colored hygrophilus looks similar to some of the "yellow" phase BRB lines here in the US. How does this subspecies differ from cenchria cenchria? My Marajo Island Rainbows look like one of the darker ones in your PICs.
. I am curious about why you call the Marajo Islands Epicrates cenchria cenchria? We know them as Epicrates cenchria barbouri. If you know about the status of the work at Butantan Institute to rename some of the subspecies including barbouri please let us know. For all I know this all may be a done deal. I have not kept up with the published work on it.
Thanks for posting,
Jeff

>>Hi guys, I thought it would be cool to show you people some rainbow boas we have here in Brazil.
>>
>>Marajó Island, Epicrates cenchria cenchria:
>>
>>
>>Mato Grosso, Epicrates cenchria cenchria:
>>
>>
>>Pernambuco, Epicrates cenchria assisi:
>>
>>
>>And the least frequently seen, from Espírito Santo and Bahia,
>>Epicrates cenchria hygrophilus (first adult, and then neonate):
>>
>>

OK guys..

Some of these rainbows are mine, and others are from friends. All have locality specific data yes.

My Marajó rainbows were taken to Butantan (I live just across the street from Butantan) for identification, as I was really curious whether they were barbouri or not. They were identified as cenchria.
According to what they said, the snake formerly known as barbouri has those eyespots in the neck all fused forming a stripe, as you see in the assisi.

As for the work from Paulo Passos about Epicrates. He separated all subspecies to the status of full species. barbouri and hygrophilus are no longer valid subspecies.

The most curious thing is that barbouri was united with maurus. Whitch means that Marajó island has in fact 2 different rainbows.

I have seen 30 or so rainbow boas from Marajó because I have a very good connection there, and they were all cenchria cenchria, including my newest rainbow that arrived just last week. Rainbows from that area tend to be dark, some being very unnatractive.

The new species are:
Epicrates alvarezi
Epicrates maurus (maurus and old barbouri)
Epicrates cenchria (old cenchria and hygrophilus)
Epicrates assisi
Epicrates crassus

Down here is the actual Epicrates map in Passos´s work:

As for your question, Jeff, if we accept Paulo´s work, then there is no difference between the old hygrophilus and cenchria because they are now the same species.

Im no taxonomist and really dont understand well their criteria to separate and unite species, but I like to keep the old subspecies, especially considering hygrophilus and cenchria.

I find this VERY interesting and woul dlove to have access to some of Paulo Passo's work. Now that I have the name of a researcher, I'll start to search. Can you help me out by pointing me to periodicals? Dates? Thanks, I'm sure this discussion will continue for a bit.
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

basinboa,
...Again, thanks for posting. The first and most glaring thing I notice on that map is that the snake we know as the Guyana Rainbow Boa is not addressed. There have been thousands of these snakes exported out of Guyana over the last few decades and they are very different than Brazilian and Colombian Rainbow Boas. At first I was very perplexed about the color of the maurus dots. The map legend says yellow and the dots looked very green to me. I saw the verde (green) for asissi and thought they were trying to depict asissi as having a range up into Central America. Upon further examination I see that maurus is depicted with the yellow dot which actually does look yellow green to me LOL. It seems strange to me that the hygrophilus subspecies was addressed and lumped in with the Brazilian Rainbow but the gaigei subspecies was not addressed. Hmmmm??? I see species dwelling in Brazil being fully addressed and two other Rainbow Boas from outside Brazil not being addressed. I do have a question about the use of dots on the map? Typically range maps use shading to represent the range of different taxa. Using those dots I am not sure whther the clumps of same colored dots in a few areas represent the main range of a taxa and the disconnected dots represent seperate noncontiguous ranges of the same taxa. Or, should we "connect the dots) to represent the entire range? Any help you can give with this stuff would be appreciated. BTW, I have had a map for quite some time (from a confidential source in Brazil) which looks like this map but has different taxanomic information in the legend. Any idea if Mr. Passos went through a major change in his thinking on this subject in the last 18 months?
Thanks again,
Jeff

>>OK guys..
>>
>>Some of these rainbows are mine, and others are from friends. All have locality specific data yes.
>>
>>My Marajó rainbows were taken to Butantan (I live just across the street from Butantan) for identification, as I was really curious whether they were barbouri or not. They were identified as cenchria.
>>According to what they said, the snake formerly known as barbouri has those eyespots in the neck all fused forming a stripe, as you see in the assisi.
>>
>>As for the work from Paulo Passos about Epicrates. He separated all subspecies to the status of full species. barbouri and hygrophilus are no longer valid subspecies.
>>
>>The most curious thing is that barbouri was united with maurus. Whitch means that Marajó island has in fact 2 different rainbows.
>>
>>I have seen 30 or so rainbow boas from Marajó because I have a very good connection there, and they were all cenchria cenchria, including my newest rainbow that arrived just last week. Rainbows from that area tend to be dark, some being very unnatractive.
>>
>>The new species are:
>>Epicrates alvarezi
>>Epicrates maurus (maurus and old barbouri)
>>Epicrates cenchria (old cenchria and hygrophilus)
>>Epicrates assisi
>>Epicrates crassus
>>
>>Down here is the actual Epicrates map in Passos´s work:
>>
>>
>>As for your question, Jeff, if we accept Paulo´s work, then there is no difference between the old hygrophilus and cenchria because they are now the same species.
>>
>>Im no taxonomist and really dont understand well their criteria to separate and unite species, but I like to keep the old subspecies, especially considering hygrophilus and cenchria.

Could it be that the "Guyana Boa" isn't addressed because it isn't considered a true species? I interpret the dots on the map as discrete positions where snakes were caught. If this is true, then the ranges of E. cenchria and E.maurus overlap. Perhaps the Guyana rainbow is a hybrid of the two.

It's interesting to noe that for the other species, there is much less overlap with the E. cenchria's range.

Awesome map! This is the first ime I've seen info like this!
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

>>Could it be that the "Guyana Boa" isn't addressed because it isn't considered a true species? I interpret the dots on the map as discrete positions where snakes were caught. If this is true, then the ranges of E. cenchria and E.maurus overlap. Perhaps the Guyana rainbow is a hybrid of the two.

Mike,

Not to add to the confusion, but in Mark O'Shea's new book, he separates out Colombians and Guyanans from the other Epicrates cenchria, and actually classified Colombians as a separate species of Epicrates, claiming that they don't interbreed with Brazilians. If I remember correctly, he put Guyanans in the same class (ie, didn't really name it as a species or subspecies) as Colombians. Now I admittedly don't know much other than looking at a lot of pictures, but visually, many young snakes listed as CRB's do closely resemble those listed as Guyanas. Then again some young CRB's look identical in pattern to BRB's. It's very confusing to me!

But this taxonomy stuff is all an arbitrary, man-made construct, and it's ever changing, which is why I sometimes challenge those who get hung up on "crosses" and "intergrades."

Whatever they are, they are wonders of evolution, that's the main thing in my mind.

Great thread, this forum is so much better than some of the others I participate in.

Thanks,
Ed

I'd be interested in checking out this book. Do you know the title?

"Not to add to the confusion, but in Mark O'Shea's new book, he separates out Colombians and Guyanans from the other Epicrates cenchria, and actually classified Colombians as a separate species of Epicrates, claiming that they don't interbreed with Brazilians."

When you say separates, do you mean that he addresses them with distinct species names? classifying Columbians as a separate species seems to be in line with this discussion. I'm certainly no expert, but I'd like to know what he's basing his claim that no interbreeding takes place on.

"If I remember correctly, he put Guyanans in the same class (ie, didn't really name it as a species or subspecies) as Colombians."

I just noticed this. This is a little confusing to me (and it sounds like it still is to Mark as well).

I agree, good discussion. I've always wanted to talk with people who are close to these animas in the wild.
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

Hi Mike,

The book is called "Boas and Pythons of the World"

Here's a link:

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8376.html

I looked at the book in the bookstore a few months ago, so I'm going by memory. Hopefully I'm not misrepresenting what he said,
but I'm pretty sure he claimed Colombians don't interbreed with Brazilians. And I think he broke the mainland Epicrates rainbows into two "types" - Type I (Colombians/Guyanans) and Type II (the rest of them). Again, I'm going by memory (which is getting less and less dependable these days), so anyone interested should check out the book. I found it in my local Barnes and Noble store.

Thanks,
Ed

>>I'd be interested in checking out this book. Do you know the title?
>>
>>
>>"Not to add to the confusion, but in Mark O'Shea's new book, he separates out Colombians and Guyanans from the other Epicrates cenchria, and actually classified Colombians as a separate species of Epicrates, claiming that they don't interbreed with Brazilians."
>>
>>When you say separates, do you mean that he addresses them with distinct species names? classifying Columbians as a separate species seems to be in line with this discussion. I'm certainly no expert, but I'd like to know what he's basing his claim that no interbreeding takes place on.
>>
>>"If I remember correctly, he put Guyanans in the same class (ie, didn't really name it as a species or subspecies) as Colombians."
>>
>>I just noticed this. This is a little confusing to me (and it sounds like it still is to Mark as well).
>>
>>I agree, good discussion. I've always wanted to talk with people who are close to these animas in the wild.
>>-----
>>Mike Lockwood
>>www.tooscaley.com

Sorry, too many replies, but its nice!

I have not talked to Paulo Passos, but as long as I know these dots represent that at least one specimen has been found in that area.

Now lets translate the map:

Fig 24. Distribution range of the continental Epicrates. Red dot: Epicrates cenchria, Light Blue: E. crassus, green: E. assisi, yellow: E. maurus, dark blue: E. alvarezi.

I´ll try to find some more information, as well as contacting Paulo...

Just give me a couple days.. Im working like crazy lately, not much time..

The legend on the map is pretty easy to translate but I am not sure why the word continentais (translation obviously = continent or perhaps continental) is used in the legend. Is this a matter of the style of the Portuguese language? It would seem odd to use the word continent (or continental) in the legend of a map writing it in English.
Jeff

>>OK guys..
>>
>>Some of these rainbows are mine, and others are from friends. All have locality specific data yes.
>>
>>My Marajó rainbows were taken to Butantan (I live just across the street from Butantan) for identification, as I was really curious whether they were barbouri or not. They were identified as cenchria.
>>According to what they said, the snake formerly known as barbouri has those eyespots in the neck all fused forming a stripe, as you see in the assisi.
>>
>>As for the work from Paulo Passos about Epicrates. He separated all subspecies to the status of full species. barbouri and hygrophilus are no longer valid subspecies.
>>
>>The most curious thing is that barbouri was united with maurus. Whitch means that Marajó island has in fact 2 different rainbows.
>>
>>I have seen 30 or so rainbow boas from Marajó because I have a very good connection there, and they were all cenchria cenchria, including my newest rainbow that arrived just last week. Rainbows from that area tend to be dark, some being very unnatractive.
>>
>>The new species are:
>>Epicrates alvarezi
>>Epicrates maurus (maurus and old barbouri)
>>Epicrates cenchria (old cenchria and hygrophilus)
>>Epicrates assisi
>>Epicrates crassus
>>
>>Down here is the actual Epicrates map in Passos´s work:
>>
>>
>>As for your question, Jeff, if we accept Paulo´s work, then there is no difference between the old hygrophilus and cenchria because they are now the same species.
>>
>>Im no taxonomist and really dont understand well their criteria to separate and unite species, but I like to keep the old subspecies, especially considering hygrophilus and cenchria.

As far as distribution of the subspecies? I can see the Yellow, blue, green and darker blue are all more or less clustered in their respective regions. The red (E.C.C ?) seems to be scattered accross the entire range???
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Dave,
...I think that what you see represents the KEY point to this reclassification. Rather than Rainbow Boas all being the same species with the range of one subspecies bordering the next this new idea is that they are mostly totally different species with overlying ranges. It does seem reasonable in the overall approach to me but as I wrote in another post the devil seems to be in the details. Especially the details that to me seem to have been overlooked.
Jeff

>>As far as distribution of the subspecies? I can see the Yellow, blue, green and darker blue are all more or less clustered in their respective regions. The red (E.C.C ?) seems to be scattered accross the entire range???
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>
>>Dave Colling
>>
>>www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
>>
>>
>>
>>0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
>>0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
>>
>>LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
>>26.49 BRB
>>20.21 BCI
>>And those are only the breeders
>>
>>lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

This is great information, and Jeff has some also. I like to learn, so I am happy to read this post.

The map was cool, but being really color-blind it does not do much good for me. I do see dots....

I am just hoping that ugly brown (no contrast to me!) rainbow boa's are now very rare and valuable, as I have two to sell......
-----
Mike

7.13 BRB
1.2 Spotted Python
1.0 Cal. King

I'm also curious about the Hygrophilus and it's distinction from other RB's. Especially seeing the appearance of the neonate makes me wonder if the anery gene in the BRB lines is the result of integrading or crossing with Hygrophilus in the past. It may be the photo or my display but it even looks like the portions of that adult Hygrophilus's crescents, where they are not background colored, are white or possibly very light yellow. Interesting snakes on their own but does make me curious about the origins of the anery gene especially given the propensity at times for mis-identification of subspecies/locality with imports, especially in the past.

Sean.
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

I was just about to query this too. Interesting food for thought.
-----
Danielle

Herps:
2.1 BRBs
1.1 Black Milksnakes
1.0 Amel Motley Corn
----------------------
Other critters:
1.0 Great Dane
1.0 Siamese
1 Senegal Parrot
1 Blue Fronted Amazon

Great post, thanks for sharing this!

I'm sure this info will raise some questions on a few issues.
I would also like to see more of the research behind the new
classifications. While I'm not a big fan of the sub-species level of classification, I'd be curious why some of them were classified as completely separate species, as opposed to lumping all of them into one species.

Regarding the anery issue, and according to the newly proposed taxonomy, maybe the "anery" is just another "phase" of BRB.

Again, thanks for the pics and the information.

Ed

>>Hi guys, I thought it would be cool to show you people some rainbow boas we have here in Brazil.
>>
>>Marajó Island, Epicrates cenchria cenchria:
>>
>>
>>Mato Grosso, Epicrates cenchria cenchria:
>>
>>
>>Pernambuco, Epicrates cenchria assisi:
>>
>>
>>And the least frequently seen, from Espírito Santo and Bahia,
>>Epicrates cenchria hygrophilus (first adult, and then neonate):
>>
>>

I just talked to another researcher, he told me that Paulo Passos used only morphological characteristics in his work.
This study is still to be published, thats why you guys cannot find it. I still have to find out whitch magazine they submitted this study.

There is also another study with DNA analysis, but this one still to be submitted to publication, it will take a while.

Please continue to keep us posted. I fiend for this kind of information. Thanks a lot!
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

Epicrates crassus
from San Pablo - Brazil
Link

Yeah, its kind of common to find this species here.

They are very blunt bodied, pattern looks like some assisi phases. Assisis can be very polymorphic.

It spells São Paulo.

I realize this is a long-dead thread but I enjoyed reading it and was curious if this snake here would classify as "Guyana" rainbow, as that is what it was sold to me as. I'd love to hear any more about the rainbow species if there are any updates.