Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Which country or geographic area is most successful in the husbandry and captive propagation of monitors. I keep hearing that it's Europe, is this true? Is the states really that far behind?

When it comes to breeding reptiles in general for the most part there's no such thing as advanced . It's all pretty straight forward and easy. By easy I mean not necessarily in terms of physical labor but more in terms of required knowledge .

I think this is more of a question of which geographic area has the most interest in breeding a certain group of animals . Here in the states except for the dwarf monitors there's not a lot of people who want to do monitor breeding projects. It's not that we can't do it, anybody can. It's that most people here don't care to. This has more to do with reasons of practicality then skill.

Ernie Eison
westwoodreptiles.com

Maybe it has to do with the fact that the US(F&W) has so many restrictions and rules (above and beyond the rest of the world) about what we can and can't do? Or what about the bad publicity reptiles get, making people fear for their lives because of the "man-eating" lizards. Or maybe its because many of Americans like to keep dogs and cats because they are more of a status symbol? Who knows. Its hard to say who is more advanced, but I wish I could get some of the stuff they can get in Europe.

What you said is silly. Have you traveled outside the US to know what kind of restrictions are elsewhere? I disagree with you on this on MANY levels.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Seeing as how some of the more commonly bred Australian species have DISAPPEARED in the US and are still being bred elsewhere I don't think the US is leading the pack!
One species that comes to mind are Glauerts!
Where did they all go???
Mike
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Mike's Monitors!

No offense Mike, but several of the species pioneered in Germany, were lost in Europe and had to be re-established by acquiring them BACK from the states or elsewhere. Europes GIANT advantage is their ability to acquire things, elsewhere.

Besides, Kimberlys are very much still here, the only one lost so far is Kings(V.kingorum) Of course, since we and rare earth stopped producing numbers, the numbers have gone way down. But they are still produced. Cheers

No offense taken! LOL
Mike
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Mike's Monitors!

This is going to sound horrible, but its what I think.

Its not about countries. Or even education. Its about climate.

The countries with the worse climates, allow those with this interest to spend more time with their animals. Also, the countries with worse climates have fewer native reptiles, so those interested in herps can only, 1.travel to see herps or 2. keep them in cages. 3. its about population, the more crowded a country is, the less nature it has and the more those folks want to do something in this area or just something different.

remember, I was a zoo exhibit builder and designer, so we used the above rules to our advantage.

The States has some of the best keepers and breeders, but it also has a very high percentage of advertisement guided drones. That is, those that follow full page adds in commerical magazines(just an example). This seriously drops our standing. Think of the tens of thousands of Savs that die yearly. This alone drops us to the bottom.

If you use common sense, the countries with indigenious varanid species, By all rights should be the best. They have the animals, they have the weather, they have the EXACT conditions the monitors come from. So these countries should be the best. But human mentality again jumps in, If these animals are in your yard, why would you want them in a cage??? Normally, these folks want something thats NOT in their yard. By all rights, Australia or Asia/indo, should be and will be the best(have the best results) THEY HAVE THE ANIMALS.

Then it depends how you measure whats better, if its numbers of captive hatched, then the states clearly smashes europe to pieces. I myself have most likely beat or come close to producing more numbers then all of europe put together. OR species, Well I have produced twentysomething species, which is amoung the top, but here I think Europe has breed a few more then me. But comparing me to all of europe is sort of silly. I am not sure that Europe has bred more species then the states. It may have. But its close.

From my research, the best early varanid breedings came from the states, notably Dallas zoo and a few others, from their hayday of reptile breeding(70's to mid 80's or so) Then after that, europe made a huge push with Horn and friends(and not so friends Bernie I.)

I made a visit to these places and saw with my own eyes, that their husbandry was not so good, It was clearly good enough, but their advantage was and still is, access to animals. They could indeed acquire legally or illegally, any species they wanted. This is and was not so in the states. Even illegal there, was not so illegal as it is here. Violations there were like getting a speeding ticket, violations here, were akind to rape or murder. In fact, our country spend more time and money on poachers/importers, then they would on murders and drug dealers. We lose points here too.

So yes, I brought up more then you thought, but, again, I really do not think its a country thing as information these days is from the internet and that is worldwide for the most part. Its now about who has the time, money and interest. Then its politics(our country is overly controlling)Or who had received brain damage as a kid, and was raised in the field with reptiles(they are my brothers and sisters), someone like, you know, ME for example.

So whos the best, I myself am up there in species produced, I do not think I have done the most, but close and I am sure there is no one person in the world that has produced the numbers, not even close. Maybe no other country has produced more then little old me. And I am a one man operation. See I told you, BRAIN DAMAGE. Well gota go, I have to set up some gilleni that just hatched, dig up some eggs, open the outdoor cages, and feed the masses of hungry mouths. So, anyone that has done more then me, well has to be considered insane.

So you asked more "advanced". I am thinking none of us is advanced, as these fine creatures have been living and breeding for tens of thousands of years, all on their own, unaided by man. They are only having problems when we(man) stick them in boxes and do not provide the BASICS. So, advanced is not really in the equation. These animals NORMALLY, grow, live and breed, so calling it advanced to allow them to do what they do normally is kinda odd. I think allowing them to live and breed should be considered normal.

Allowing superior results like getting superior growth and recruitment may be considered advanced. Hmmmmmmmm I think I win that one. Having had many species produce ten to 19 clutches in a row(no more then two months apart) or having one female produce 59 clutches in her life and still going, that may be considered advanced(record setting). or maybe, retarded(crazy) depends how you look at it.

Has anyone in any other country matched those type results, no, I don't think so. So, WE WIN the STATES TAKES HOME THE TROPHY. See, I told you, its about how you measure advanced. Cheers

But human mentality again jumps in, If these animals are in your yard, why would you want them in a cage??? Normally, these folks want something that's NOT in their yard. By all rights, Australia or Asia/indo, should be and will be the best(have the best results) THEY HAVE THE ANIMALS.

I can't fully agree with that. True the exotic always has more allure but that doesn't stop people from breeding what's in their owns yards . How many guys in Florida breed corn snakes or how many people in Australia breed carpets and diamonds. Collectors generally breed a wide range of native stuff as long as it's practical and hopefully profitable.

The people who want to put the effort into breeding monitors is always going to be a select few . This is because it doesn't matter where you are for the most part their really not practical or profitable to breed. 99% of monitor buyers are people who get them for pets not breeding projects.

As far as the US having overly restrictive laws . It's not the US. It's Australia , Malaysia the Philippines that don't allow export . These are the places with the overly restrictive laws . If animals are legally exported from these places there's no problem with bringing them into the States.

Ernie Eison
Westwoodreptiles.com

The countries you mentioned have indigenous monitors. So their laws may be for the protection of native species. Or like Australia where they close the borders to protect from disease and invasive species. You do know that Australia does not have common livestock and many other animal diseases.

The states do not have native monitors, unless you count those in coral cables, hahahahahahahahaha

The states is a CITES signee country, but is far more restrictive then CITES. CITES clearly states that appendix 1 animals produced out of country of origin, are to be moved to appendix 2, and appendix 2 bred out of country of origin are to become species of no concern. Yet, our fine country sees fit to overdue that and clamp down of what ever it feels like(above and beyond the laws or agreements) What is excessive. Europe and canada treats varanids as CITES intented. Thats why I say we are EXCESSIVE. USFW, let me say part of that again, "U.S." fish and wildlife are going out of their way to mess with non native species that are NOT prohibited to enter our country.

For instance our country does not accept European paperwork for appendix 2 captive born in Europe varanids. Which I believe is a violation of the CITES agreement.

(www.cites.org)

Cheers

The point isn't the reason behind why places like Australia have such heavy restrictions the point is they do. If you can't legally export animals from these places how can you expect the US to accept them as legal. Personally I think at this point in time a place like Australia should employ a system to allow the export of captive bred animals by registered breeders . Maybe even issue small export quotas for some wc species the way many country's with equally strict laws do. Instead these places implement hard line wildlife policies that encourage smuggling and untimely protect nothing. This what they pass off as wildlife protection management. The problem starts at the country of origin not in the US.

" For instance our country does not accept European paperwork for appendix 2 captive born in Europe varanids. Which I believe is a violation of the CITES agreement. "

"CITES clearly states that appendix 1 animals produced out of country of origin, are to be moved to appendix 2 "

Actually the Europeans are in violation for issuing the appendix 2 paperwork without following the guidelines that THEY agreed to. In order for the offspring to be reclassified appendix 2 the breeder must be registered with cites organization and their founder stock cataloged as legal. The only thing the US is doing is not allowing these bootleg European guys to blatantly work a loophole in the system. I'm not a fan of government intervention by any stretch but in this case there's not much of an argument. Besides plenty of stuff slips thru the cracks without anyone saying anything so things aren't so bad. For now !

Ernie Eison
Westwoodreptiles.com

Its funny that you mention corn snakes, at reptile shows even up north its so easy to find different colors and patterns, morphs etc for a few bucks a piece still CBB.
In Florida its so easy and cheap to obtain almost any import that there probably isnt alot of real market for most CBB reptiles.
I think that most keepers of these creatures come and go just like many other things and hobbys in this country, as well many other countries.
I dont post here much, or stop and read much, but decided when I had a minute I pop in and comment on what Ive seen over the years here and in person.

A couple of major points are being glossed over here, namely if there were THOUSANDS of monitors produced by one or two individuals, along with the thousands of monitors imported and we have almost NO continued success with either captive bred or wild caught it stands to reason that our HUSBANDRY SUCKS!
Captive bred animals are easier to establish and generaly should thrive and reproduce if we allowed them, we do not.
But here we have someone, (not going to mention any names but his initials are Frank Retes)claiming that our husbandry in the states is superior because of his isolated success, nonsense.
The fact of the matter is our husbandry in the ststes is sub par, we do a terrible job of educating new and intermediate keepers. If we were doing even a halfway decent job we would see many more captive bred specimens. I bred and sold about 100 dums in the last few years, almost all of which are now dead, so I include myself in this.
If we are to claim any success whatsoever we need to come up with an entirely new way of sharing information and improving communication.
If you were to remove the top few breeders from each country and look at the husbandry of keepers in general,I think you would find a serious discrepency in the husbandry of monitors in the U.S to other countries.Again, I rest the blame for this on the shoulders of our "lowest common denominator" style of keeping.
We have a long way to go before we can call the husbandry of these animals in the states even adequate, so this showy "we win the trophy" self serving attitude is....how to say this nicely, pathetic.
Ben

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If you disagree then back it up.

I don't how all you got out of Retes post was that he's trying to claim that in the husbandry in the states is superior because of his isolated success .

As for the rest. What would you like backed up . The fact that I disagree with yet another ranting soap box opinion ?

Ernie Eison
Westwoodreptiles.com

Excuse the typos in the previous post. I hit the post icon instead of the preview . The first line should read ,

I don't know how all you got out of Retes post was that he's trying to claim that the husbandry in the states is superior because of his isolated success . He obviously expressed his reasons beyond that statement.

Ernie Eison
Westwoodreptiles.com

The question was Who is the most advanced.
The boast was
"WE WIN the STATES TAKES HOME THE TROPHY."
I just offered up my opinion, not sure what makes it a "soapbox" opinion, perhaps because it does not fit within the prescibed paradym,feel free to explain.

Do you disagree that thousands of monitors were reportedly produced in captivity and that very few of them survived?
Do you think we do a bang up job of educating new keepers? If so why so many dead within a year ( or less)?
Do you disagree that saying you've won while the game is just getting started is not productive?
Ben

" The question was Who is the most advanced.
The boast was
"WE WIN the STATES TAKES HOME THE TROPHY."

Instead of Para phrasing Rete's you should look at the statement in the full context of what was said.

" Do you disagree that thousands of monitors were reportedly produced in captivity and that very few of them survived?
Do you think we do a bang up job of educating new keepers? If so why so many dead within a year ( or less)"

The answer is simple , because we have so many. As long as large numbers are available there will be large numbers of mortality . Period. If more die in the States then in Europe it's only because we have more and nothing else. All the keeper information in the world will not change this. It's not about education it's about follow thru on the part of the buyer.

You can replace the word monitor with any name. What's universal and apply's to people and their pets regardless of species anywhere in the world is human mentality and pet ownership . Do you really think the guy who buys a baby savanna in the UK is any different then the guy who buys one in the US or has access to superior husbandry advice ? Like I said previously 99% of the people that buy monitors buy them as pets . There will always be a large failure rate among people who simply want to keep a pet no matter where they live.It all go's back to human nature and follow thru on the part of the buyer.

Ernie Eison
Westwoodreptiles.com

He has produced and sold, dieing in the average keepers hands also.
I produced many beardies and some monitors, I didnt want to know to whom most went (left that up to a friend who sold them, except one who went to a good keeper who used to post alot here years ago), and decided that I didnt want to continue breeding them intentionally afterwards. The problem falls on the average keeper in the states, in my experience those who are looking for your hatchlings and adults for sale are either impulse buyers, kids who cannot keep them as they should be kept properly, because of their own limitations, or someone who is looking to buy cheap and resell.
I gave away some dwarf monitors to people who I knew would take good care of them (this took alot of time to find someone I felt suitable), and kept 2 here.
Regardless of how much you educate most keepers the end result is the same, the animals future is tied directly to what the keeper is willing or able to put into it.
Besides until I decide otherwise my incubator, and the perlite, will sit packed away, the eggs can easily be fed to other monitors when I dig them up.