Reptile & Amphibian Forums

QUOTE: "While it would be nice for all the genetic morphs and their combinations in reptiles to be labeled the same thing, it isn't going to happen so don't come in here spouting "this is the way it is" when those rules don't apply to everything."

The rules should apply to everything! By you posting your opinions on this, are you just one of the many people perpetuating this "snow phenomenon"?

So, albinos are not albinos in every species across the board? Yes, they are!

Please take into consideration that you have different types of course, T T- and varying degrees there of that, but they are all still albinos. As to the blizzard term not being used in the snake nomenclature, it is and has been used on corn snakes, Colombian boas and will probably be seen in ball pythons in the near future. We well understand that the "pseudo snow" trait is a line bred trait, as well as the many other desirable looking geckos; however, this does not dismiss the fact that there are people placing FALSE names on these animals that have no solid GENETIC foundation to build on! We and many other people have spent countless thousands of dollars obtaining these "line bred traits" to breed and produce offspring and none of them looked even close to the adults that produced them. Furthermore, we have taken two average looking leopard geckos and produced multiple "line bred traits" hypos, jungles, goldens, etc. All of which have no true genetic foundation in which to build a strong breeding project. Because there is no stability in these traits it makes it difficult to truly define "what morph is he or she" from that one question you will get a barrage of responses from "if it has X amount of spots it's not a hypo" or "if the pattern is not broken enough it's not a jungle" and "if you buy it as a snow and after the money is gone and it's all grown up and it darkens up or turns yellow, you just over paid for a normal leopard gecko" It would be easy enough to just base all these names on a genetic foundation that people can rely on. Why not take your very best pseudo snow, breed it with your best albino make double hets, breed the babies back and produce a TRUE snow leopard gecko. So, in conclusion, you may actually be working with a line of axanthics which do produce yellow with age. This increase in yellow may be caused by iridophores allowing light reflective qualities, or that carotenoids have accumulated because of the animals diet; either way, do the work prove these as true genetic mutations and show us that snow! We believe that even when you accomplish all of that work, you will discover that many people out there will not buy into your "true" snow because of the false names that been given prematurely to these leopard geckos.
We are through spouting off now!

I don't understand the point you are trying to make. I agree with what Rayes reptiles is saying. What is being refered to as a snow leopard is a selectively bred trait, in snakes you are breeding two recessive traits to get a snow. It is two different forms of inheritance. I fail to see why it is such a big deal. People that are into the hobby even at a novice level understand the difference, or should be able to with out much trouble.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Now I can see where you are coming from on the snows (even though I dont really agree), but to bring all line bred traits into the mix is a bunch of hooey.

Your going to tell me that tangerines, hypos, carrot tails, stripes, jungle, etc have no true genetic value? That just isn't true.

""We and many other people have spent countless thousands of dollars obtaining these "line bred traits" to breed and produce offspring and NONE of them looked even close to the adults that produced them.""

I guess I'm also one of the people who has spent many thousands on line bred traits, and let me tell you that if you guys have NEVER had any of the offspring come out looking like the parents you must be doing something wrong. Every year I have worked with line bred traits I have gotten offspring that looked BETTER then the parents.

I would rather work with line breds where I can IMPROVE upon my stock year after year, than simply churn out countless blizzard or albino clones anyday.

If the line breds didn't work out for you guys I'm sorry, but to come on here and "spout off" at every line bred trait is rediculous. You can't make a generalization like this and present it as truth. Everything you have said is nothing more than your OPINION, and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Sincerely,

Ross Payan - www.LeosAnonymous.com
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-Ross Payan - www.LeosAnonymous.com

Leos Anonymous

Red Striped Tangerines, Carrot Tails and Screaming Amel Fat-Tails

I have to agree with Ross and Bill on this one. I did however upon first hearing the term "snow" leo assume an axanthic x albino reproduction. Did'nt know who had anaxanthics, but surprises happen all the time. With the fine work alot of herpetoculturists are doing these days, I'm sure it is only a matter of time before someone has a butter or pewter leo and I'm certain that it won't be from recessive genetic carriers as used to produce these qualities in Elaphe, but merely an appropriate name for the reproduction from quality line breeding. It does lead me to think what the anaxathic x albino breeding would be called. I would think you would agree TribalProp that this is currently a conversation that is taking place with many breeders of balls, crested geckos, etc. and is slowly but surely working itself out. On an additional note, I think that the "10 spot rule" and things of that nature are a good gage to help breeders not only price their animal, but to assist those purchasing with a general guideline to follow. And to Ross...I want you to stop calling your geckos Red Stripes, I want you to call them "Extreme" or "Furious"jk)! Great work everyone!
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Galen Clark
www.captivescience.com

>>I have to agree with Ross and Bill on this one. I did however upon first hearing the term "snow" leo assume an axanthic x albino reproduction. Did'nt know who had anaxanthics, but surprises happen all the time. With the fine work alot of herpetoculturists are doing these days, I'm sure it is only a matter of time before someone has a butter or pewter leo and I'm certain that it won't be from recessive genetic carriers as used to produce these qualities in Elaphe, but merely an appropriate name for the reproduction from quality line breeding. It does lead me to think what the anaxathic x albino breeding would be called. I would think you would agree TribalProp that this is currently a conversation that is taking place with many breeders of balls, crested geckos, etc. and is slowly but surely working itself out. On an additional note, I think that the "10 spot rule" and things of that nature are a good gage to help breeders not only price their animal, but to assist those purchasing with a general guideline to follow. And to Ross...I want you to stop calling your geckos Red Stripes, I want you to call them "Extreme" or "Furious"jk)! Great work everyone!
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>>Galen Clark
>>www.captivescience.com
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-Ross Payan - www.LeosAnonymous.com

Leos Anonymous

Red Striped Tangerines, Carrot Tails and Screaming Amel Fat-Tails

The snow thing is one thing, I am no expert on snows but I know many white and black looking babies grow up looking normal, and I know also that dark looking babies can lighten as they age. But to say that all line bred traits have no genetic foundation and are worthless is just insane. I breed combinations of line bred and recessive morphs (hypo tang albinos) and the genetics traits most certainly DO come out in the offspring, to varying levels. Some are "better" (express desired trait to a greater degree), some are not as nice (express desired trait to lesser degree), but breeding for the traits you want is what "selective" breeding is all about and ultimately gives any animal with outstanding line bred traits far more lasting value than any strict recessive, simply because you *can't* just breed it to a normal and get hets and get 50% of all offspring to show that trait the next year. Combining two recessives is trickier, that only keeps value up for so long.

To say you have bred two normals and gotten lucky and produced hypos or goldens or whatever, does not mean that line bred traits have no value, the first albinos were created from two normal-looking geckos as well, doesn't mean there isn't other genetic material not apparent that can't manifest itself, or that mutations can't occur. Most of the time, bredding tow normals together gives you normals. Keep breeding within the line and you may express other genetic potentials.

just take your word. It would stand to reason that anyone who supports this logic would disagree with my post; however, I believe it as a feeble attempt to protect you "projects" and future sales. As stated before, there is NO genetic foundation of the snow leopard gecko and therefore, it's misrepresenting the animals at hand! I have seen 1000s of dollars leave my household with the potential of producing these so called morphs and almost NONE have panned out. So spend your money, work with these animals and make up the names that have NO genetic foundation, it's all the same to me. Have you ever wondered why leopard gecko prices have droped so suddenly? It's because no one has really developed these projects and it so unstable that anyone can call there geckos practically what ever they want! Leopard geckos where at the top not too long ago, but people are tired of getting burned. So, respond away, I have genetics on my side, what do you have? By the way I just produced the Kibbie slayer X 20 R morph...pics coming soon!

Brian

I'm not trying to be rude here but wanted to throw my 2 cents in here. My main leopard gecko project this year is the super hypo tangerine carrot tails, which are (IMO) a combination of a selectively bred trait (tangerine) and somewhat of a co-dominant trait (super hypo carrot tail). The results are so clear this year. I would say that at least 80% of the offspring I produce from this project, possibly much more than that even, are super hypo, the others will be nice hypos/tangs. That in itself proves (to me at least) that in that particular case it is most definitely an inheritable trait. I realize the discussion began on the subject of snows but I believe hypo/super hypo was brought up in the original post so I just wanted to point that out. My theory is that the "Ray Hine" hypos are more of a co dominant or possibly even a dominant trait, unlike some of the other hypo tangerines we are familiar with, which are selectively bred. This is why myself and others are producing so many super hypos and hypos in such a consistant manner now, as opposed to the hypo tangs of old, which were much more of a "gamble" so to speak. Does that make sense?

Snow is indeed a selectively bred trait(just like tangerine). I think that with time and persistance snows will be as common as tangerines some day. However, this will take several years of work to accomplish. It took David Nieves at least 7 years of line breeding before he began to consistantly produce tangerine babies from his colonies. It does not happen in one, two, or even three generations, it is a long term project. I think if someone wants to spend $500 or whatever (I have no idea how much snows cost) on a "Grade A" pair it would be a great investment and a fun project that will be much more challenging than producing albinos or other recessives.

Just my opinion whatever that's worth!
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

Just for the record I have NO snow project in the works... But when you go spouting off saying that all line bred traits are trash and are not genetic your dead wrong.

Are you going to sit here and tell me that carrot tails and tangerines have no genetic significance?

Is it pure luck that carrot tails have very high percentages of carrot tails hatchlings?

I think you are not making the kind of money you intended to with your geckos, so you're trying to justify it and made these posts in frustration.

I remember the post you guys started in the Ball Python forum not too long ago... talking about how balls are no good, dont produce, and how people cant make money breeding them. You got slammed for that post too.

And your comment about leopard gecko prices dropping... show me a morph of any reptile that does not go down in time? Yeah, didn't think you could, because they all do. The best tangerines and carrot tails are still bringing in top dollar and will continue to do so. That is the beauty of line bred traits, they can be improved upon!

I dont have a problem with others voicing their opinions, that is part of what this forum is all about, but when people like you try to mis-represent the facts and act as if they are speaking the truth it's too much for me to swallow.

Like I said, everything you have posted is your opinion (most of it completely false) and should be taken with a grain of salt.

What makes you feel as though you are the "authority" on leopard gecko genetics Brian... just curious

Take care.

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-Ross Payan - www.LeosAnonymous.com

Leos Anonymous

Red Striped Tangerines, Carrot Tails and Screaming Amel Fat-Tails

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Josh
My Email

By now, just about everything I have said has been distorted, and apparently hooked on phonics is not available in most areas! I never once said that "ALL LINE BRED TRAITS ARE TRASH"
When people can breed two similar traits that are genetically proven and produce the desired offspring, then and only then will anyone be able to accept it as a true genetic morph. I understand that by breeding two tangerine leopard geckos that the offspring will most likely be tangerine; however, this is not always the case! When breeding these "line bred traits" many variables come into play and there is not a single breeder that I have spoken with that was surprised or disappointed with the results.
When you take two snow leopard geckos and breed them and none of the offspring produced exhibit the snow trait, you have nothing! You would be quite surprised to breed two albinos together and produce normal offspring wouldn't you....yes you would and that's because albino is a true genetic morph. There is no denying that through selective breeding efforts that leopard geckos are far more attractive now than the original imports that were once available and all of this is due to line breeding.
Maybe the tangerine in a leopard geckos is similar to the pastel of the ball python world which is a CO-dominant trait and results are exhibited in the very first offspring, but I never said they were trash! And with that said I will conclude with this.

To Ross Payan
"What makes you feel as though you are the "authority" on leopard gecko genetics Brian... just curious"

Ross, I never said that I was the authority on leopard gecko genetics. What you need to understand is that facts are facts, snows are not genetically proven, and anyone trying to sell snows to people is deceiving their customers because they will most likely only produce normals from these animals. As to MY reputation, I have never once misrepresented an animals genetic heritage. I supply 100% customer satisfaction, answer all husbandry questions on the animals I sell. We hardly sell to anyone who uses this forum, and I'm not the least bit concerned about the recourse and of the huge dollar sales that I might lose after all of my posts. I will sit here content with all of my genetically proven animals and know that I'm not deceiving anyone.

Brian

Here is a nice little quote:

""Furthermore, we have taken two average looking leopard geckos and produced multiple "line bred traits" hypos, jungles, goldens, etc..... Because there is no stability in these traits it makes it difficult to truly define "what morph is he or she" from that one question you will get a barrage of responses from "if it has X amount of spots it's not a hypo" or "if the pattern is not broken enough it's not a jungle""

You plainly state there is no stability or genetic foundation for these traits... that includes a lot more than just snows doesn't it?

Also before you question my intelligence with quotes such as: "apparently hooked on phonics is not available in most areas!" (very mature by the way, my hat is off to you) maybe you should obtain a basic knowledge of genetics before you start typing more false statements.

Tangerines are in NO WAY any type of Co-Dom trait... A line bred trait and a co-dom trait are NOT related. Co-dom traits are controlled by a single alle, and are the visible manifestation of a het for "super". Line bred traits are controlled by many alleles, which is why there is so much variablilty.

Example: pastel ball python : co-dom het
super pastel ball python: co-dom homozygous

So for my conclusion:

Brian you speak of these "genetically proven" morphs... saying that all others are "unproven" and mis-represented. There is not a single line bred morph that can be "proven", it just isn't possible. The only morphs that can be proven are ones that deal with single alleles (co-doms, doms, simple recessives, etc...). A morph is proven by doing standard test crosses and observing the percentages, this can't be done with ANY line bred trait.

I don't have anything agaist you personally Brian... but when you come on the forum and start making posts filled with false statements someone has to step up and set the record straight.

Like Kelli said, the snow morph is still in it's infancy, much like tangerines were years back. In time through selective breeding efforts the snow morph has a chance to be in the same boat as tangerines, carrot tails, or any other line bred trait.

Take care.
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-Ross Payan - www.LeosAnonymous.com

Leos Anonymous

Red Striped Tangerines, Carrot Tails and Screaming Amel Fat-Tails

there are so many of them out there? There are so many people producing tangerines, carrottails, etc, and your trying to say that they geniticly do not exist? There aren't many ressisive traits in leopard geckos, which I believe is a good thing because unlike many snakes, leopard geckos mature very fast and these ressesive's can be multiplied very fast, causing their price to drop dramatically. On the flip side tangerines and carrottails are still calling for a high price because as Ross said, they are continually getting better and better looking with each year of breeding (unlike ressesive's).

Snow leopard geckos are being produced and proven to carry their color into adult hood as well into their offspring and Albey Schroll is one (the only one I know of) of the breeders doing this. You can look on his best of 2001 page and see a pure black and white adult male leopard gecko and several almost as nice females. He has also produced and sold many offspring from his snow colony. Sometimes a black and white baby pops up out of nowhere but most of the time it turns out normal looking. Rarly ever does a baby that hatches a "snow" from non-snow parents keep its color, and if it does then it would be up to them to selective breed to keep that color and see if it will carry on to the next generation.

What your saying is completely untrue and everyone else knows this. There are people here who have been breeding these line bred traits for years, and your trying to tell them that line bred traits do not exist. It sounds like as if you tried working with these morphs once, didn't produce what you wanted, so you gave up and decided to come to the conclusion that these morphs cannot be reproduced because their not ressesive traits and line bred is a bunch of crap. If this is the case then you should try to stick with it, try again maybe with a larger colony or somthing but don't come here and try to pass somthing off as the truth because you didn't get what you want.
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Bradley Baquial