Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You
Click for ZooMed
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You

Kingsville Texas "Reds"

ginter Apr 13, 2008 03:03 PM

The actual genetics of these guys is illusive. My original female(F1) was a low contrast, flower pot red and her sibling brother displayed the classic caramel base color of "reds" that don't go red as is seen in the male pictured below.

I held back one of her absolute reddest sons that eventualy went to a friend and at age three all of his red pigment turned a dark brown.......diet? lack of UV exposure? who knows, right?

These two pictured are F2's and are obviosly not all that red but they throw really red offspring, more so than their F1 parents.

From what I have seen the crumbly line of reds are a bit more orange, and notibly more contrasty but just as variable and unpredictable.

I have always lacked the resources to raise up an entire clutch to track and document color changes into adulthood but it would be a cool thing to do.

If anyone else has red sayi images (locality or not) post them for comparison, let's see what's out there.

Replies (29)

SeanMenke Apr 13, 2008 05:15 PM

Here is a male Red bullsnake I am currently trying to breed. His genetics are slightly uncertain. His father was wild caught by a friend from the Kingsville, TX area and bred to a female that he bought at a snake show in Arlington.

I really like the sharp contrast between the black and "red" on the upper third of his body. Unfortunately, the picture does not do it justice.

sjohn Apr 13, 2008 06:26 PM

Here is a Crumbly red female, and I have another young female that is more red than this one but I don't have a pic of her now.
Scott John Reptiles
Scott John Reptiles

DISCERN Apr 13, 2008 07:27 PM

Ginter,

Here is my 2004 female that came from you:

I need to take a more recent pic, as she keeps getting redder and redder.

-----
Genesis 1:1

Jeremy Pierce Apr 14, 2008 03:04 PM

That snake is hot Billy.
-----
Jeremy Pierce
Shade Tree Exotics
shade-tree-exotics@att.net

DISCERN Apr 14, 2008 04:57 PM

Thank you sir! I will try to take some more recent pics.
-----
Genesis 1:1

dan felice Apr 14, 2008 04:23 AM

06 crumbley female

Jeremy Pierce Apr 14, 2008 07:25 AM

I'm at work right now so I can't post a ton of pics but here is a pic with non-specific Texas locale ancestry. She started out to be pretty drab, and was actually for sale. She actually never sold so I kept her over winter and man am I glad I did. She is the best red adult I have right now. I kept back one of her daughters last year (pictured below her mother) and she is screaming! I have many different reds in different stages of developement that I will try to post pics of tonight. Genetically speaking the closest answer that I can come up with is polygenic inheritance. There is a link to a great genetics page on my website that explains polygenic inheritance(please don't delete this for that, this is important information and not an advertisement) under links. I have kept back 4 to 5 animals per year over the last 5 or 6 years and this seems to fit the bill better than any other explanation that I've found. I can post a bunch more pics when I get home tonight. Great topic!
Image

-----
Jeremy Pierce
Shade Tree Exotics
shade-tree-exotics@att.net

Jeremy Pierce Apr 14, 2008 07:39 AM

I hope I don't get fired. I went ahead and cut and pasted the page for you to read the info:

Gregor Mendel studied mainly traits that have distinct alternate forms for instance, purple flower color vs white flower color. But many traits are more complex than this and basically can take on any number of continuous values. For example in humans there is not just two classes of people - short vs tall- but a whole range of possible heights. In addition many traits are not controlled by a single gene pair but by many genes interacting with each other and also with the environment.. The study of traits controlled by many genes and also by the environment is called quantitative genetics. This a complex area of genetics but some understanding of quantitative genetics is useful for evolution because evolution often acts on complex traits influenced both by genetics and by the environment.

Polygenic inheritance.

Previous Page, Next Page, Top of Page

One of the major problems in genetics during the early part of the 20th century involved the following question. If Mendel's ideas were correct then how can one explain the inheritance of quantitative traits? Statistical research suggested that for quantitative traits the offspring of a cross tended to be intermediate in appearence between the two parents. For instance if one parent is tall and the other short, the offspring tend to be intermediate in height. In other words, the offspring in a cross tend to be a blend of both parents. This presents a problem for evolution, since for evolution to happen by natural selection requires the presence of genetically based variation in the value of a quantitative traits. Yet if offspring tend toward the mean value of the trait for the two parents then, the necessary variation for evolution to happen would be lost. The inheritance of quanitative traits is typically viewed in terms of what is called polygenic inheritance.

Assumptions of the Polygenic Model:

Previous Page, Next Page, Top of Page

This model makes the following 6 simplifying assumptions:

Each contributing gene has small and relatively equal effects.
The effects of each allele are additive.
The is no dominance, instead the genes at each locus behave as if they follow incomplete dominance.
There is no epistasis or interaction among the different loci contributing to the value of the trait
There is no linkage involved.
The value of the trait depends solely on genetics; environmental influences can be ignored .

Example I Polygenic inheritance of color in wheat.

Previous Page, Next Page, Top of Page

Kernal color in wheat is determined by two gene pairs, so called polygenes that produce a range of colors from white to dark red depending on the combinations of alleles. Dark red plants are homozygous AABB and white plants are homozygous aabb. When these homozygotes are crossed the F1 offspring are all double heterozygotes AaBb. Thus crossing individuals with the phenotype extremes yield offspring that are a 'blend' of the two parents.

This illustrates an important point that many times when you have two parents who differ in phenotype for some characteristic, there is a tendency for the offspring to be intermediate to the parents in phenotype. This phenomenon is sometimes called regression to the mean.

But what happens when the two double heterozygotes are crossed? The results are shown in the following Punnett Square

Notice that there are 5 phenotypic classes corresponding to the number of upper case alleles 0 through 4 that can be present in the offspring. Observe too that even though both parents are intermediate, there is not blending in the offfspring in that one does see that 1/16th of the offspring are dark red and 1/16 are white. This model suggests that intermediate individauls when they mate produce offspring that can be more extreme than either parent. Even though the polygenic model makes a number of simplyfying assumptions it does seem to be a good approximation to the inheritance of a large number of quantitative traits.

A more complex example and detailed mathematical analysis is presented next.

AB
Ab
aB
ab

AB
AABB
AABb
AaBB
AaBb

Ab
AABb
AAbb
AaBb
Aabb

aB
AaBB
AaBb
aaBB
aaBb

ab
AaBb
Aabb
aaBb
aabb

Example II Polygenic inheritance of plant height in tobacco: Analysis using the binomial theorem.

Previous Page, Next Page,Top of Page

Plant height in tobacco is controlled not by a single pair of genes but by a series of genes at multiple loci that each has a small additive affect on the phenotype of the plant. Assume three loci, each of which has two alleles. (A,a B,b C,c). Imagine pure-breeding short plants are all aabbcc and tall plants are all AABCC and a situation where the height of the plant is determined entirely by the number of upper case alleles regardless of which locus the allele is at. Thus a plant with the genotype AaBbcc is the same height as a plant with genotype AabbCc. In contrast to the claim of your text the upper case alleles are not dominant but behave as incomplete dominant alleles.

There are 7 possible classes of plant heights depending on the number of upper case alleles.

0,1,2,3,4,5 or 6.

Consider a pure breeding short plant aabbcc crossed with a pure breeding AABBCC plant. The F1's resulting from this cross are clearly the triple heterozygote:

AaBbCc

Notice that these plants are going to be intermediate in height between the two parents.

But what happens when these intermediate individuals are bred with each other? To analyze this, assume that the gene pairs are unlinked. This allows us to use independent assortment to predict the results. The expected fraction of offspring in each height class is given by the following expression based on the binomial theorem:

where N is the number of alleles in total(6) and M is the number of upper case alleles in a particular class. One way to interpret this formula is as the number of ways of choosing an individual plant can have M upper case alleles out of N. Sometimes we say N choose M for this.

N for our example is 6. Thus when M is zero there is only one way to get no upper case alleles. But when M is 1 there are 6!/(1!(5!) ) = 6 ways to do this.

Consider when M = 3. Then we have 6! / (3! 3!) = 6*5*4/3*2*1 = 120/6 = 20. All the possible classes out of 64 are shown in the graph here.

Notice that the frequency distribution of phenotypes in the F2 generation looks a little like the bell shaped curve familiar to students of statistics as the 'Normal Distribution'. Indeeed for large numbers of genes invovled in a quantitative trait where each gene has a small additive effect the resulting distribution of phenotype classes very closely resembles the Normal Distribution.

More complex models in quantitative genetics assume that the phenotype results from both environmental factors and genetics, perhaps interacting in complex ways. These sorts of models are called multifactorial models.

VBS Home page,VBS Course Navigator, Evolution, Quantitative Genetics, Previous Page, Next Page

Previous Page, Next Page, Top of Page

pgd 10/14/02
-----
Jeremy Pierce
Shade Tree Exotics
shade-tree-exotics@att.net

Jeremy Pierce Apr 14, 2008 09:05 AM

The bell curve graph didn't cut and paste but what it demonstrated was that in an f2 breeding you got a small percentage of organisms that were smaller, less color, etc... and a small percentage of exceptional organisms and the majority were middle of the road. This is what I have been seeing out of the majority of my breedings over the last 6 years working with different varieties of red bulls. In the first years of my breeding bulls my focus was breeding reds to whitesides so the f1 animals were as middle of the road as it could get with a couple of exceptions (which fits the bell curve model). I have some f2 animals that are knockouts that had clutch mates that were pretty low colored reds. Now that I've held back many and within the next year most should be of breeding age, I hope to see improvement in the quality of reds, however I expect the same bell curve to be in effect only with the "less quality" animals still being of high quality. I have spent a fair amount of time on this and am happy to be discussing it. Thanks John! Take care all.
-----
Jeremy Pierce
Shade Tree Exotics
shade-tree-exotics@att.net

Jeremy Pierce Apr 14, 2008 08:56 PM

This is the mother and grandmother to the previous two posted. WC texas animal.
Image
-----
Jeremy Pierce
Shade Tree Exotics
shade-tree-exotics@att.net

Jeremy Pierce Apr 14, 2008 08:58 PM

This female is from a Crumbly female to a bell line whiteside. She is around one year of age in this pic and is much more colored up now (and full of eggs). I need to take some new pics in the near future.
Image
-----
Jeremy Pierce
Shade Tree Exotics
shade-tree-exotics@att.net

Jeremy Pierce Apr 14, 2008 09:25 PM

This is an f1 female from a different crumbly to bell line whiteside breeding. She is no where near as red as the previous animal.
Image
-----
Jeremy Pierce
Shade Tree Exotics
shade-tree-exotics@att.net

Jeremy Pierce Apr 14, 2008 09:28 PM

This is an 07 daughter to the previous female.

-----
Jeremy Pierce
Shade Tree Exotics
shade-tree-exotics@att.net

Jeremy Pierce Apr 14, 2008 09:01 PM

This is a sister to the adult female pictured previously. Again WC nonspecific texas lineage.
Image
-----
Jeremy Pierce
Shade Tree Exotics
shade-tree-exotics@att.net

Jeremy Pierce Apr 14, 2008 09:13 PM

This is a brother to the two breeding a whiteside with crumbly lineage.

-----
Jeremy Pierce
Shade Tree Exotics
shade-tree-exotics@att.net

Jeremy Pierce Apr 14, 2008 09:14 PM

This is an 07 daughter of the previous pairing.

-----
Jeremy Pierce
Shade Tree Exotics
shade-tree-exotics@att.net

CFlowers Apr 14, 2008 05:27 PM

So which species do you think more red?
Chris Flowers

CFlowers Apr 14, 2008 05:27 PM

I mean what "LINE" do you think gets more red?
Chris Flowers

shannon brown Apr 14, 2008 05:38 PM

I would say that Ginters line is more red and crumbly's line is more orange.Now there is always exceptions of coarse.

Shannon

CFlowers Apr 14, 2008 05:48 PM

So we agree Kingsville line is redder?
Chris

shannon brown Apr 14, 2008 07:25 PM

.
Image

jason nelson Apr 14, 2008 08:21 PM

1
Image

jason nelson Apr 14, 2008 08:22 PM

2
Image

jason nelson Apr 14, 2008 08:24 PM

3
Image

jason nelson Apr 14, 2008 08:25 PM

4
Image

DISCERN Apr 14, 2008 10:00 PM

Jason,

That thing is just screaming!!
AND, I would love to point out that the snake in real life is actually that exact color!!
The best Kingsville red I have seen!
-----
Genesis 1:1

Jeremy Pierce Apr 14, 2008 09:32 PM

I've always thought that was the coolest set of pics. Great comparison shots Jason. Thanks.
-----
Jeremy Pierce
Shade Tree Exotics
shade-tree-exotics@att.net

sjohn Apr 14, 2008 09:57 PM

Now that is a red pit
Scott John Reptiles

ginter Apr 15, 2008 07:00 PM

Jason, that animal is quite impressive. That is what my original founder female looked like. She died quite unexpectedly but fortunetly I had held back a pair, (the not so red ones ones pictured in the original post).

Site Tools