Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello Campers,

Check out the interesting article (with pictures) about a rare and important fossil find -- a sort of missing link.

Enjoy!

LOL

Where's the link to the article? I dont see it

Nice snake BTW, I have one too. Mine's het with Ruthveni amelanism though

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Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7339508.stm

There was a live snake found in China, I believe an old world rat snake, that had two hind legs.

It seems that the gene that used to be used for legs is still there (maybe serving a different purpose) - and can still get accidentally "turned on" to produce legs from time to time.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Biology textbooks are changing quickly due to emergent evidence for the major role that epigenetic factors play in controlling gene expression. I agree that the genes for legs are still there in modern snakes; they're just turned off. Similarly, even though over 98% of our genetic material is the same as that of chimpanzees, we come out as humans -- due to a slightly different recipe using the same ingredients. Just awesome.

As "Old-World" Boa's and Python's still have(and use) their vestigial hind leg remnants(now claws) to stimulate their female counterpart's back during courtship. The first time I witnessed this behavior myself many years ago, I was totally blown away in AWE!,.....it was absolutely unbelievable!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

this was the most interesting facet to all the new information IMO.
The fact so few gene pairs code for exhibited phenotype, compared to the number of genes present and "turned off".

A few months ago I had asked a few questions of the kingsnake forum, for instance "How much genetic material is contained in a individual?". The answer to that question just may be "a complete road map of the animals evolutionary history".

Now I'm asking about poly paternity, which I suspect (documented in garter snakes) is common in snakes. You can probably see where I'm going with this...but that's all for now.

Good stuff!
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

You mean "a snake is a snake is a snake"?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

>>You mean "a snake is a snake is a snake"?
>>:Mark
>>-----
>>Surrender Dorothy!
>>
>>crimsonking.piczo.com/

Not that extreme certainly. But it does draw attention to the fact that we are splitting hairs especially in the case of "some" subspecies.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

"Not that extreme certainly. But it does draw attention to the fact that we are splitting hairs especially in the case of "some" subspecies."

Whoa... So I learned today that snakes have legs AND hair?!
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Holly

0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Lizzie Borden) (missing )
1.0 Florida Kingsnake (Eddie Gein)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Black Cat (Shadowfax)
1.0 Egyptian Arabian (Bagan) (Deceased )
1.0 Tennessee Walking Horse (Durango)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

one old timer in deep south Texas told me about a population
of Rattlesnakes that grew whiskers out their heads. He said
they looked just like cacti thorns (imagine that) but they weren't.
I'm positive that he believed what he was telling me. I didn't.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

..
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Holly

0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Lizzie Borden) (missing )
1.0 Florida Kingsnake (Eddie Gein)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Black Cat (Shadowfax)
1.0 Egyptian Arabian (Bagan) (Deceased )
1.0 Tennessee Walking Horse (Durango)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

i dont believe it to be true either but since scales and hair are made up of the same material it potentially could happen...possible but not probable
adam
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

He could have possibly seen some photos, been told about, or saw something on TV about Sidewinders, or Horned Vipers. If you think about it, they have horns just as he discribed. Although I would certainly bet he doesn't have a clue they are nothing more than modified supraocular scales.

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

you betcha.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

that if multiple males were introduced of any mating of a particular female simultaneously, or very close to it, the chances of the offspring having multiple sires would be fairly high. But since Garter Snakes, Ribbon Snakes, Anacondas, etc... participate typically in breeding "balls", or clusters, it isn't too surprising that this can, and does happen.

But since most captive breeding projects in herpetoculture tend to be a "selective" pairing of only two individuals for a desired specific trait outcome, this multiple male practice isn't done much, or it(poly-paternity) would likely be seen more often. That would pretty much be my take on this.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I believe Bartlett breeds his female baja mountain kings with 3 males every season due to a tendency for male mountain kings to have off years and shoot blanks from time to time.

I don't know that one would be able to tell the different fathers as I don't think he is working with simple morphs, but I would not be surprised if sometimes his females carried clutches with 3 different fathers. I guess it depends upon how many males she has copulated with when she decides to fertilize the eggs.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

True, I can certainly see this practice being useful with infertility problems as you mentioned, many Boa Constrictor breeders also do this, and of course as you mentioned, unless it was a known morph copulation, where you anticipated a specific outcome,you wouldn't know who sired what. But many times that might be the only choice.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Hi Joe, I fogot to post on that subject. Most kings use a Cloacal plug. That is a plug that blocks the female from excepting sperm. Its normally formed after the first breeding(within a day or two)

However, if females are bred within hours by two or more males, more then one male can indeed fertilize a clutch.

A couple years ago, I have a hannibil female thayri kill the first I introduced to breed here. Then I put in another male, they copulated so I left thinking all was right. I came back in about twenty minutes later and she killed him too. So I tossed her(female thayeri) in with a black&white cal king, as a food item. My exact words were, kill his Bit$^%$. Well, as it would happen, they merrily bred like they were the same species.

Half the clutch were cal/thayeri the other half pure thayeri. Those offspring should produce this year.

But, when I practiced backing a male with another a few days after the first male. The offspring would always be from the first male. Cheers

the copulatory plug. Thanks Frank! I just did a quick search and there is much interesting reading regarding that subject.

Forky
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

I don't have a copy, but I think you'll be wanting to find this article..........

Zweifel, R. G. and H. C. Dessauer. 1983. Multiple insemination demonstrated experimentally in the kingsnake (Lampropeltis getulus). Experientia. 39(317-319.
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Ace

Summary:
A female snake chosen on the basis of her previously determined blood protein genotype was mated on successive days to 2 males similarly selected. Electrophoretic analysis of 6 young showed that each male had sired 3 off-spring, thereby providing an unequivocal demonstration of multiple insemination.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

The very same one!..LOL!, I saw that one too.

You and I both know this is VERY possible in certain situations, and I don't see how it comes as such a shock for some to figure. Heck, with (for example) 15 ovum lined up in a female snake, it takes at LEAST 15 individual sperm(probably tens of thousands in reality to get the job done) to fertilize them all, and it seems VERY likely that any participating male's sperm would then be mixed. When multiple sire's are introduced in close succession, the odds are fairly high that there's going to be a "poly-paternity" situation.

And we're not even a rocket scientists!..LOL!

later, man!, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>> You and I both know this is VERY possible in certain situations,

I think we all know it's possible. The real questions are, what is the "normal" circumstance in the wild or What is the average number of fathers for any wild clutch of eggs, and how does this vary with species and circumstance. What role does a copulatory plug really play?

Sure we've had these ideas for 30 years, but what do we really know about it? Not much really.

One of my favorite sayings is "the more I learn, the less I know".

Forky
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

And I certainly wasn't trying to belittle you, or your knowledge of snakes with my post by the way, I was just making general comments to anyone reading the post.

This multiple sire/poly-paternity thing, as you certainly already know, is a "tough egg" to crack, because there are just WAY too many different circumstances, variables, conditions, etc... for any solid answers to this. I think the only real "solid" answer is that this does happen on occasion under certain circumstance.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

here's looking forward to understanding things a little better.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

n/p
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

The real point is reproductive behavior, most kings I have worked in nature occur in attending pairs, that is, ONE single male attends a female until she is fertilized. Then some may move to another female.

As in no group male copulations. As you say, some species utilize group breeding like some gardersnake species.

But most species I have WATCHED, do not. Most use a single male or at most attended by two males. (lepidus and willardi, heloderma, trimorphs, kings, etc)

I have seen pits copulate on several occasions(in nature) and there was only one male, same with coachwhips. Heck, once I found a pair of Sand snakes copulating, again, a single male.

I did observe a large female blacknecked garder copulating, with a small group of males(3)Cheers

or have any idea approximately how long the window of fertilization is for a kingsnake or a bullsnake?

I'm thinking this is going to be more beneficial for animals that have large(ish) litters / clutches. At least the benefits of this strategy will be expressed by selection at a faster rate.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

Half the clutch were cal/thayeri the other half pure thayeri.
how can this be? im not a "purist" by any means but how can you get 50/50's and 100%(pure) in the same clutch??
,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

did you miss what he said about her breeding with the second male he put in with her?

If they don't produce the plug for a day or two, then it would make sense that she used two different sets of sperm to fertilize the eggs, resulting in a half and half clutch...
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings
1.0 Brooksi
0.1 Red Belly Piranha
1.0 Australian Shepherd

What I find interesting is how many eggs in succession were fathered by the thayeri and how many with the calking. If she had x number of eggs lined up, the first males' sperm only got so far in, and the second males sperm found the first eggs blocked and continued down the line? That ol' calking must have been a potent old dude! I would like to be there at lay time to number the position the eggs came out and watch the hatch to see what went down. Maybe some of the slugs we have are from swimmers that couldn't go the distance and dropped out of the race!
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Todd Hughes

It appears like the male thayeri fertilized one oviduct, and the cal king fertilized the other. As they also hatched with part of the clutch, the thayeri were next to eachother and the Cal crosses were next to each other.

I have to say, In the decades of breeding colubrids, this one clutch was a "learning event". Cheers

Does the sperm plug plug both oviducts at once or only one at a time? Or is it sometimes one and sometimes both?

yes, hi i read his post, thanks
i just dont buy into a snake breeding 2 males(1 being a different ssp.) and the clutch consisting of 50/50 mixes and pure. imho they are all mixes. and if i was starting a breeding project id be weary of bringing those so called "pures" into it especially w/siblings that are obvious 50/50 crosses thats all and i would like to hear more about these "pures" from FR.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

ahh.. ok.. I see what you're getting at... I just didn't catch your angle at first...
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings
1.0 Brooksi
0.1 Red Belly Piranha
1.0 Australian Shepherd

First there was no question as to which were pure and which were not. The normal thayeri, were EXACTLY normale. AND the cal crosses left no doubt as to what they were.

With that in mind, I excessed the "normal" thayeri, as products of a CROSS breeding with full explination as to their history. Cheers

From a visual standpoint it would be hard to say beyond a shadow of a doubt. From a mechanical standpoint each egg within the female can only be fertilized by one sperm, so either a cal king sperm or a thayeri sperm makes it.

If it's like other animals(including humans), once the sperm penetrates the egg(ovum), the egg instantly releases(or creates) an enzyme(protein) that makes the ovum unable to be penetrated by any other additional sperm.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

anythings possible in Frank's snake room! There are far stranger things happening all the time!
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Todd Hughes