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The Other Granite

sean1976 Apr 15, 2008 02:06 PM

Does anyone remeber or have the details on the granite corn morph that is not a bloodred morph? I remeber seeing pictures and hearing history/background on them sometime in the last few years but I only read it once and would like the details.

Please do not refference anything that might get the thread deleted

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Replies (24)

DMong Apr 15, 2008 02:25 PM

As far as I know, a true "Granite" is a combination of Diffused(which is associated with "blood red) and anery type A. Of course there are other very similar looking combinations one could add to this to produce variations of this cultivar.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

DMong Apr 15, 2008 02:50 PM

Doing a little research, it is apparently an outcrossing of the original "Granite" to a "Pewter" corn. Here's a pic.

~Doug
Image
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

shannon brown Apr 15, 2008 03:10 PM

about here.He is talking about the first"Granite" thats was around and that was a pure keys corn that was produced by my friend Craig Boyd from the keys.
I had some hets at one time but moved them when I got out of corns.They were pretty awesome and bred true and were the real deal.

Anyway, it was a keys and nothing else.I am pretty sure it was a Big Pine Keys to be exacty.Soderberg would know also.

L8r

DMong Apr 15, 2008 03:37 PM

The originals were from "key" stock. But from what I can gather from a ton of other stuff, these "Terrazzo's" are not "just" key animals now, they have been outcrossed to some other trait( I think Pewter), of course don't personally hold me to that, because anythings possible nowadays as you well know..LOL!

later!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

shannon brown Apr 15, 2008 03:40 PM

oh yeah I agree, I am sure now they have all kinds of stuff in them but I was saying that the first "Granite's" were the real deal pure keys.

L8r Shannon

byron.d Apr 15, 2008 11:15 PM

it is. You're on the money there. I have some from Don.
They're the only corns I keep - Keys - Rosy Rats.

byron.d

PDC Apr 16, 2008 08:48 AM

Wow that is a very good lookalike for some of the Bairds x Corn Hybrids that iv seen.

Its getting crazy, a good majority of the corns that iv seen for sale just lately almost screem hybrid, i may aswell get into hybrids at least you know whats in them, the breeders seem to be far more open.

Im not saying that is a hybrid , those are just my thoughts and im sorry if iv upset anyone by this post.

PDC

Four lined Ratsnakes

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PDC

cconstrictors Apr 15, 2008 02:37 PM

The name granite was also given to to a near patternless animal,that they are now calling Terrazzo.You can find it in the new morph guide.
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Arlon Delorge
Classic Constrictors

TandJ Apr 15, 2008 05:02 PM

Terrezo huh.. I must have missed the vote or something .. *LOL* I would guess the genetics book being refered to is Chucks CMG...

They remind me of Motley Striped Keys.. Would have been nice to actually get some of the originals to test monkey wth corn stripe and motley genetics just to see what happens..

Regards... Tim of T and J

xblackheart Apr 15, 2008 08:49 PM

I was looking in the 2007 edition of CMG. I just ordered the 2008 edition. It looks like this morph is mentioned. Cant wait to get the book.
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****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"The more things change, the more they remain Insane"

DMong Apr 16, 2008 12:14 AM

There are three types of corn morph with the exact same name. The original "Granite" from many years ago originated from "Big Pine Key" animals, and was just that, also a striped variant of sorts I guess, but nevertheless 100% Keys Corn. The second "Granite", aka "Pepper" is comprised of Diffused x anery. type A, and this latest so-called "Terrazzo" is allegedly from the former Diffused x aner type A x "Pewter", Pewter being a combination of Diffused x Charcoal(anery.type B).

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

MCConstrictors Apr 16, 2008 09:26 AM

I was under the impression that "Terrazzo" actually referred to the original granite, the locality animal.

At the very least, that's the way it sounded on the cornsnakes.com forums
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-Jaime Palma
Mad-City Constrictors

DMong Apr 16, 2008 11:04 AM

That's part of the whole confusion, and I'm sure a percentage of conversations are about exactly the one you mention(original).

I've recently been reading TONS of things regarding this, and seem to be more and more confused(along with many others) about what traits have been used recently in producing similar "Granites","Terrazzo's", or whatever.......Miami, Charcoal(anery. B), Diffused, Pewter, anery. A, etc... etc...

So the more I read, the more I'm confused. I do know about the "original", and what was used to produce some of the other so-called "Granite-Terrazzo's" , but exactly WHICH ONE is being talked about at any given time, is really making my HEAD SPIN!. So since I don't own any, don't breed any, don't plan on buying any, I'll just forget about them for a while, and maybe sometime off in the very distant future, things may(or may NOT) become clearer in regards to them(exactly which one am I talking about now?, who knows!). Of course there's still the huge controversy about being allelic with stripe, motley, or whatever that runs several feet thick too, so for now, I don't really give a hoot about the morph, or want any part of the debate, whichever one that might "REALLY" be..LOL!,.......as far as I'm concerned.....DONE DEAL!

And now, back to the regularly scheduled program!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

FunkyRes Apr 16, 2008 09:36 PM

I'd love to have one.
I don't care what they are allelic with etc.

The first granite I heard about was the bloodred morph, but if these key corns were called granite first, they should IMHO retain the name. Maybe the new bloodred x Anery should be called Corian.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

DMong Apr 16, 2008 09:57 PM

>>> "Maybe the new bloodred x Anery should be called Corian."

LOL!!,...I like that!, and the name "Corian" would also explain why this morph is so dang EXPENSIVE!!!

That's funny!,.......I built Bars, counter tops, and many other things with the DuPont product "Corian" years ago. When a good friend of mine told me recently how much their new Corian counter top cost, I told them they should have went with cheaper imported Italian marble..LOL!!....wow!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

TandJ Apr 16, 2008 08:09 PM

"There are three types of corn morph with the exact same name. The original "Granite" from many years ago originated from "Big Pine Key" animals, and was just that, also a striped variant of sorts I guess, but nevertheless 100% Keys Corn. The second "Granite", aka "Pepper" is comprised of Diffused x anery. type A, and this latest so-called "Terrazzo" is allegedly from the former Diffused x aner type A x "Pewter", Pewter being a combination of Diffused x Charcoal(anery.type B).

best regards, ~Doug"

I agree that the original granites were the Upper Keys animals.. Of course I agree with the second one too, that has been the accepted trade name for Diffused Aneries, like or lump it, that one is sticking.. But I have never heard terrezo until recently pointing towards the "striped" Upper Keys animals, but I have never heard of Terrezo being used for a Diffused Anery Charcoal, what a weird and a pain in the butt combo there.. *shrugs*

Intresting...

Regards.. Tim of T and J

DonSoderberg Apr 17, 2008 01:27 AM

Ouch, you folks are making my head hurt. lol.

I appreciate all of you trying to figure this out (and doing a pretty good job of it) by networking ideas and what you have heard here and there. I apologize that I wasn't here sooner to help with the REAL STORY. Busy time of year in this business.

Shannon is correct (and others of you also). Craig Boyd caught the progenators of the line on one of the keys back in the 90s (perhaps sooner). Before the year 2000, his breeding trials revealed that they were recessive in heritable nature. Some were virtually patternless, with the keys (rosy rat) color scheme, while others were only partially "striped". Many of you will notice the pattern on TERRAZZOS is not like that of the STRIPED corns. Prior to 2000, they were selling for $500.00 each.

Roughly three years ago, one of the other corn snake forums, decided to assign the name GRANITE to the anery A bloods. Owner of the largest corn snake web site in the U.S. and I both warned them that the name was already used to describe the original keys animal. They debated and ultimately ignored the warnings, and assigned the name to the anery A bloods anyway. Just a few months later, Kathy Love's book (CORN SNAKES - THE COMPREHENSIVE OWNER'S GUIDE) was released, and on page 192, you can see a picture of one of the original GRANITE recessive phenotypes. Until this year, breeders of the original GRANITE corns (there are few of us so far) have suffered the inflicted pains of confusion and misidentification, since the bulk of today's virtually networked corn snake keepers associate the name with anery A corns. That is, even though TERRAZZOS were the original GRANITES, those of us that had them fought an uphill and failed battle to reverse the decision of that relatively small group of corn snake "experts". Of course, many people new in this industry know the name popularly applies to anerythristic A bloodreds, so I wanted to get the real story out there, to hopefully reduce confusion.

SO . . . this year, Jeff Galewood renamed them TERRAZZO CORNS to denote their granite-like appearance. At this point, having two entirely different-looking corn morphs with the same name would be ridiculous, so we caved in and renamed them. Jeff produced some of the recessive pattern representatives of this mutation by crossing an original TERRAZZO to some Southern Florida corns. His homozygous products are redder than those original GRANITES that displayed the traditional rosy rat color scheme, but they are considered TERRAZZOS, by virtue of possessing the recessive pattern trait (presuming the trait is not allelic to an existing mutation). I produced one in 2007 from hets of the original line and I currently have several adult hets that I'll be forcing to work overtime, in an effort to resurrect the original colors - in concert with the original recessive pattern trait. All my het breeders are F1s and F2s of the original pure keys line.

Now, 'the-rest-of-the-story' . . .

I sent a striped snow corn to Jeff to breed to one of his homozygous males this year, to determine if the TERRAZZO is an allele of motley, or something new. If it is not a motley allele, TERRAZZOS will be one more pattern mutation in the corn snake family tree. If they are an allele of motley, the TERRAZZO name will apply to the unique pattern form of these gems. Though the pattern resembles some striped motlies, I see enough differences to be encouraged that we are indeed working with a new pattern mutation (if not an extreme variation of motley). Only breeding trials will show us. Fingers crossed.

In 2007, I also produced a "normally"-colored version of the TERRAZZO pattern, and a charcoal version. These were F2s of a cross between a het TERRAZZO and a pewter. Those are currently in the breeding collection of KJ and KASI LODRIGUE. No morph name has been assigned to any color combination of the TERRAZZO, so the guesses that TERRAZZO is the name assigned to a color compount product of the pattern trait are inaccurate.

SO, if TERRAZZO turns out to be a motley mutation, my charcoal "TERRAZZO" will actually be a charcoal "striped-motley". If indeed the TERRAZZO turns out to be a new pattern mutation, you can all see where this is going. There will be another sizable branch added to the corn snake family tree. Lots of different color and pattern traits to mix with it.

Just wanted to give you a more accurate history of the TERRAZZO (formerly GRANITE), so we'd all be on the same page.

Cheers,

Don Soderberg
South Mountain Reptiles
www.cornsnake.NET
South Mountain Reptiles

sean1976 Apr 17, 2008 02:14 AM

Thanks for clearing up all our blind speculation and questionable recollections lol. It's always great to get good info. On a side not is there any chance of us seeing some adult pictures of these specimens? Can't wait to see what falls out of these in the future even if they are not my personal favorites. Who knows though, I didn't use to like stripes either

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

DonSoderberg Apr 17, 2008 08:28 AM

I honestly don't know who has adult homos. I have only hets, and the only resemblance they have to the phenotpye of the pure form is their color scheme (that of most light-colored rosy rats). The picture in Kathy's book is a classic representation of the mutation/morph. Jeffs have the classic pattern and most of the original coloration. One of those can be seen in Chuck's 2008 Morph Guide.
South Mountain Reptiles

DMong Apr 17, 2008 09:56 AM

Thanks for clarifying the big "hoopla", and explaining the WHOLE story, I can actually make some sense out of that.

SEE!,....that really wasn't too "far off in the distant future!" ......as I mentioned earlier..LOL!

thanks, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

KJUN Apr 17, 2008 10:56 AM

Howdy:

I've posted images of terrazzo/granite corns next to images of striped/motley corns so that people can see the differences for themselves. I've also posted images of THE SMR charcoal terrazzo and "possible" hypo terrazzo elsewhere. I can't upload them from work to post here, so if ANYONE wants to see those images....well, just email me! I'd be more than happy to share.

....or just google "terrazzo cornsnakes" For me, my original posts on this topic showed up as the first 2 hits.

KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net
KJUN Firearms

sean1976 Apr 17, 2008 01:02 PM

I'll email you KJ but just so you know when I went to your posts that popped up in the search there were no pictures. There was plenty of information but not actual pictures. I am not sure if that was because of my computer or the postings themselves but thought I'd let you know.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

KJUN Apr 17, 2008 01:10 PM

>>I'll email you KJ but just so you know when I went to your posts that popped up in the search there were no pictures. There was plenty of information but not actual pictures. I am not sure if that was because of my computer or the postings themselves but thought I'd let you know.

You have to log in to see the images.
KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net
KJUN Firearms

draybar Apr 17, 2008 06:14 PM

Just like I said all along.

The original granites were not anery bloodreds.

Other people decided they wanted to use the name granite so the original granites are now called terrazzos
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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