Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click here for Dragon Serpents
Click for ZooMed
Click here for Dragon Serpents

An updated Panamanian imperator history>

ChrisGilbert Apr 16, 2008 11:01 AM

My goal is for this report to serve as a continually updated record of Panamanian Boa constrictor imperator in United States captive breeding programs. Hopefully this answers questions for those who had them, and works as a reference for everyone else.

To begin, after a 10 year ban on export, Panama permitted a shipment to the United States in early 2005.

There seems to be a lot of confusion as to the contents of this shipment. And most of it seems to be rumors that get passed on through word of mouth and taken as fact. In an effort to address this I have decided to post a scanned image of the CITES permit that accompanied this first shipment. It is not full size because I did not want someone to be able to print it out and use it to sell boas that were not from this shipment, nor the progeny of said boas.

While not fully clear you can make out that the quantity of boas in the shipment was 60. The next detail you will notice is the absence of a subspecies listed. There is a line for the genus, Boa and another for the species, Boa constrictor. However nowhere does it mention Imperator or Sabogae. (This image is purposely reduced in size for security reasons.)

Just as comparison this is the CITES for the '04 Costa Rican shipment, again no subspecies label:

***Amended note: The Sabogae obtained by Rich Ihle of Salmonboa.com came in on CITES permits that DID denote subspecies. While I have seen a copy of this document, I do not hold the rights to publish a copy of it.

So now the question is what made up those 60 boas. There were 3 Sabogae, and 57 Imperator. The information about these contents I got from Kevin Barnett and Matt Lerer (separate inquiries to check validity). In Daytona 2005 I was fortunate enough to see one of the Sabogae on John Berry's table. Identical in appearance to those that Rich Ihle had with him. When John moved back to the UK he sold those boas to Vin Russo.

So now to the 57 Imperator. Kevin notified me of the shipment shortly after he received many of the boas, my dad decided to buy 2.2 of them. They were bred this season in two separate pairings (not group breeding, so as to be sure of parentage). The first litter was born March 22, 2008 resulting in 22 live babies, no slugs or stillborns. This was the first litter born in the United States from Panamanian boas to come into the country under legal permits since Panama's placement of a ban on exports 10 years prior. The second litter was born April 16, 2008 consisting of 17 babies and 5 slugs.

Now there is a very important piece of information that people seem to have missed and/or get confused about. This is the lack of locality data with these boas.

What exactly does that mean?

That means, the exact place of origin, such as the City of collection, was never noted. They may very well come from many Panamanian locales.

Some people seem to think that they are not Panamanian, because the information of no locality information, has been misunderstood. They are without a doubt Panamanian boas, however the collection point is not known. It is the collection point, the city and region that makes the locale definition. Country of origin, and political boundary are just a reference point. So these boas are as much locality boas as a Suriname boa. A boa from Suriname, but with no locale information. Where as a Pokigron Suriname is a locality Suriname boa. Hopefully this example will clear up any added confusion to my explanation.

Back to the 57 boas. This group consisted of Hypos, Wild Type (normal), and reverse striped boas of varying degrees from both color phases.

Matt Lerer of GHI Reptiles bought the shipment directly from the importer. Matt reported to me that of those 57 Boas, 23 were Hypos. The number of 26 quoted in other sources seems to have included the Sabogae as Hypos, although the true Hypomelanistic Panamanians were BCI. So, 34 Wild Type, 23 Hypo BCI, and 3 Sabogae.

Now of those Hypos and wild type BCI there were some with full reverse stripes. I have seen 2 wild type stripes, and Matt has 7 Hypos with full reverse stripes.

Others, such as this male which we have, have lesser stripes.

The same male braving this shot:

Some of you may now be asking about those Sabogae. How did they end up there? Well, the Pearl Islands, the island of Toboga, and other islands in the Bay of Panama (exit of Panama canal) are all under Panamanian governmental control, and home to wild populations of Boa constrictor sabogae. So those 3 boas, which have been authenticated as Sabogae, could have come from one of those islands. There may be mainland Sabogae populations, but I do not know.

So that pretty much sums up the first Panamanian shipment. However, there were others.

In Vin Russo's book The Complete Boa Constrictor, he mentions only one shipment. However that was written before the other shipments. Keep in mind the extensive time from writing to publishing to release.

Again, quoting Matt Lerer, the second shipment in 2005 contained 12 boas. 6 of which were Hypos.

There was not another shipment to the United States until 2007. There were 2 shipments in 2007. The first of which contained 20 boas, and no Hypos. These boas were publicly offered for sale on Kingsnake.com classifieds.

Now the 4th and final shipment. Matt did not mention how many boas were in the shipment, only that it was small and contained one hypo. Matt did mention that Sabogae were coming in more often now. Jared Horenstien and Matt Lerer have both confirmed that multiple shipments have come in from Panama recently that are of Sabogae, but NOT Imperator. The important point is that only 4 shipments of Panamanian BCI have come in, at least legally and documented. With the numbers just above 89, and less than 100. I have also received two private accounts from individuals that obtained boas from the first shipment, which later died, between the two people at least 7 of the boas are dead. There may be more as I do not know who all has them to check current quotas.

I would love to talk more about Panamanian Sabogae, but that is another topic, which I still do not have all the information for. And the focus here is on the Imperator.

So in concluding, Panamanian BCI are rare boas in culture. With numbers less than 100 in the country. As well, because of the methods of import, all valid examples should be accompanied by CITES permits. With the exception of the March 22nd litter, I am not aware of any others yet being produced in the US. Matt has a few gravid Hypo Reverse Stripes, and my dad is expecting a second litter from a gravid Wild Type. Vin Russo should also hopefully have a few litters this year. These should be the first US CBB litters, as 2008 marks F1 Panamanian imperator.

One final side note. The CA Motleys introduced to those of us in the US by Alex Barriero of Boa Republic have been reported by John Berry to have originated in the UK from Panamanian stock. John is originally from and currently resides in the UK.

The CA Motleys have been bred to Nicaraguan and other boas of Central American lineage, as well as a breeding to a Colombian EBV Red Group. I spoke with Alex this summer and he does have 1.1 original CA Motleys, whatever their original origin may be. However they are siblings. Perhaps this has become like the original Salmon matriarch that Rich Ihle started with, a boa of unknown origin reported to be Panamanian.

Hopefully more pure Panamanians will be produced, and incorporated into pure examples of Motley and Hypo mutations. At least one breeder last year produced cross litters with Panamanian sires, and I am aware of a few such breedings this year as well. While I am sure that the breeders have good reasoning for their projects, I hope that lineage information will be well maintained and that they will not falsely be sold as pure. Pure Panamanian BCI are, and will remain by virtue, rare.

Here a few post shed pictures of some of the babies from the recent Panamanian litter born March 22. The first ones born in the US from new stock following Panama's ten year export ban.

And now, for the pictures, of the U.S. CBB F1 Panamanian BCI from CITES imported founder stock!













-----
Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

Replies (15)

Bighurt Apr 16, 2008 11:43 AM

Great Read Chris, thanks for the update.

So I assume do to their rarity you will be holding on to most of your CBB stock....LOL

Cheers
-----
Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

0.1 Snow "Khal" RTB
1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.0 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
3.1 Red Bearded Dragon's
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0.1 Child

ChrisGilbert Apr 16, 2008 11:49 AM

We've talked about it only briefly. Will be keeping stock back from each litter to mix bloodlines, and be able to produce F1 and F2 in the future. However it isn't feasible to keep all 39.
-----
Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

LarM Apr 16, 2008 01:40 PM

Hey Chris Congrats to you and your Dad on another great litter.I'm curious I know your concentrating on these beautiful BCI Panamanian Boas.How do feel about the information on the German Website about Sabogae(Pearl Island )Boas,or lack there of?They say on their website Pearl Islands no longer have populations of Boas .They are all gone have you read the information I'm talking about?Thanks Chris,Lar M
-----
Boas By Klevitz

Warren_Booth Apr 16, 2008 02:28 PM

Hi LAr,
If its the same website that I am thinking of, it also states that Hog island boas are extinct in the wild. This is not true.
They have been recorded for several years now.
It was simply a case of having a rigorous scientific research project in place to validate that conclusion.
Warren
-----
Dr Warren Booth
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology
3309 Gardner Hall
Raleigh, NC 27695-7613

ChrisGilbert Apr 16, 2008 02:46 PM

I think Warren covered that well.

I have not looked at wild population data for Sabogae on the Pearl Islands. I just know where they have historically been found.
-----
Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

LarM Apr 16, 2008 03:15 PM

Thanks guys for the great answers.I think we are all talking about the same very popular website,locale Boas are their specialty.I just found it interesting how they had some info and documentation.Plus went as far as to say our Boas here in USA are not really Pearl Island Boas.Just more info that makes it very difficult to sort out the truth sometimes.Thanks again for your responses.
Lar M
-----
Boas By Klevitz

Jonathan_Brady Apr 16, 2008 04:11 PM

That particular website is good for SOME information, but a lot of it is not entirely true as well as biased. He has the best of intentions, but I think his passion clouds his judgement as well as hampers his "people skills". It also seems to me the author has an agenda. Couldn't guess what it is with certainty though.
So, IN MY OPINION, the site is a good resource, but it ain't the boa bible.
jb
-----
Jonathan Brady
*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*

jscrick Apr 16, 2008 05:37 PM

Is it possible he is questioning the legitamacy of the boas from the Serpentarium in Costa Rica? Or, is he validating those and questioning all others?
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

ChrisGilbert Apr 16, 2008 09:25 PM

Well that is the source of his Sabogae. So I doubt he would be trying to tarnish the name.

More to that story, but not fit for the forum.
-----
Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

LarM Apr 16, 2008 09:30 PM

The way I read it,It comes across as saying all other forms of Sabogae are not really Sabogae.
As JB states the website has some great info,but its not the "all knowing Bible of Boa Constrictor info". Its interesting to read things though that seem supported through documentation.Then find there is always another side to the story.This is why I asked the question. Lar M
-----
Boas By Klevitz

AndrewPotts Apr 17, 2008 07:03 AM

Chris, I was stationed in Panama for over 3 years in the early eighties and spent most of that time in the jungle. Almost all the boas I came across or boas that others came across and I got to view them look exactly like the ones you have. Neat. Very neat. On occasion I would find a dark boa that looked more BCC than BCI but most looked like what you have. As far as size I've seen some in excess of 8' maybe larger. Have a picture somewhere of a big specimen and if I can find it I'll post it. I swear once I saw some little Panamanian kid standing at this major junction just down the road from our post holding a boa that had to be at least 9' plus. Huge. Right next to him was a guy selling Jaguar skins, and next to him some guy selling baby parrots. A real wild west back in the day. Oh no I'm being a retard and telling war stories. So sorry. Nice looking animals Chris and wish you and your dad tons of luck. Take care. Andrew

ChrisGilbert Apr 17, 2008 07:39 AM

Good to hear stories like that!

I am sure that the really old Panamanian girls could get some size to them. These girls bred small, but they are very young when you consider how long they live. And they are larger than the small locales. Of course within any group there is a wide variety, not just in color and pattern, but in size as well.
-----
Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

LarM Apr 17, 2008 01:19 PM

I for one would love to hear everything you have to say about time spent in the jungle spotting Boas.Where they were(by a river,under a log etc...) ,what they were doing,how they looked?It all sounds interesting to me Andrew.Lar M
-----
Boas By Klevitz

Ophidia_Junkie Apr 17, 2008 05:48 PM

When I did my jungle warfare training at Ft. Sherman, near Colon Panama back in the mid 80's, I encountered several very aberrant ones. Most I would say were aberrant. I also saw few similar to Chris's, but mostly aberrant ones.

Not questioning Chris's Boas or anything. Just a bit surprised at your comment due to my personal experience. It's like the opposite of yours.

Rick

>>Chris, I was stationed in Panama for over 3 years in the early eighties and spent most of that time in the jungle. Almost all the boas I came across or boas that others came across and I got to view them look exactly like the ones you have.

AndrewPotts Apr 19, 2008 09:06 AM

Rick sorry for not responding earlier, thought the thread was dead Fred. I hear what your saying my man, sounds like you and I were in different Panama's...lol...lol...lol. What's even funnier is most of the dark aberrant boas I've seen where in areas that had the oldest growth. The ones resembling what Chris has were in areas with the biggest human footprint, i.e. training areas, areas on post or near post, research areas and A.S.P.'s and on the fringes of most little towns. Loved the jungle though, love to go back. Ft Sherman had some of the best diving in the area with shore reefs everywhere. Oh well nice to see that a fellow Infantryman lurks the highways and byways of Kingsnake.com. Airborne leads the way. Death from above. Take care and best of luck to all this fine breeding season. Andrew

Site Tools