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What are the main physical differences between these that set them apart from each other to warrant seperate species? I've been searching for info but can't find any.
Thanks.

>>What are the main physical differences between these that set them apart from each other to warrant seperate species? I've been searching for info but can't find any.
>>Thanks.

N.A. Bulls and Gophers are the same species catenifer. The LA Pine is the sole representative of the species ruthveni, and the rest of the Pines are of the species melanoleucus (according the CNAH).

I know I didn't answer your question, but you can read the Taxonomic comments here www.cnah.org/nameslist.asp?id=6

Forky
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Good question. Wish I could be of more help other than just to say that I'm anxious to know the answer to that too. Heck the only difference besides the name and sizes is where they are found, and then again, in intergrade zones, even that's suspect.

reako45

Ok, i responded to such a question on this forum a month ago or so and the guy kind of went off on me so I will attempt a more user friendly version. The take home message is that this Genus, Pituophis, is fairly complex and as of yet still some what poorly understood. There has been much controversy regarding what the the accurate taxonomic seperations are. Lets face it, Pituophis catenifer affinis was named for its affinity (as implied in the Latin epithete affinis) to P.c.sayi, a previously known as P.melenoluecus sayi, etc. There are some really good works out there including the oldy but goody treatment by Olive Griffith-Stull. This is somewhat outdated taxonomically but has very reliable information on what makes a deserticola a deserticola, how an annectans differs from the nominant, how a northern and southern pine differ and how they overlap in morphological characteristics, etc. When I first started looking for this publication it was hard to get. My first copy was an old, yellowed original printing about 25 years older than me and I am old...........
Fortunetly it is in reprint and reasonably priced! Go get a copy, you will glad you did. There are a few other good publications that are worth getting. Skip Mara's pet store picture book if you seriously want to learn more about Pituophis, (Sorry WP, it was great for the 7 year olds but we need more).

Sam Sweet and william Parker did a great treatment of Pituophis for Catalogue of Am. Amphibians and reptiles on Pituophis. (474.1). This pub is loaded with lots of great info including what all the latin names for the various Pituophis mean and where they came from. For example Pituophis m.lodingi....Named for Charles Loding a doctor and herp enthusiest. He and some buddies were out herping one morning when they saw a DOR indigo. As we have all experienced, the rest of the morning did not go well and they got skunked. To keep the day from being a total loss they stopped to check the DOR indigo only to find that they were looking at an as of yet undescribed BLACK PINESNAKE! This was in the 1940's! believe it or not. Chuck got the dubious honor of holding the now fairly rotted remains out the window on the drive home and will forever be recognized....Pituophis m. lodingi

L. Klauber was really active with the San Diego Society of natural history and produced at least three publications on baja Pituophis, "the gophersnakes of Baja Californiaw/descriptions of new subspecies of P. catenifer", " A new gopher snake from santa Cruze Island, California", "Classification and ranges of the gopher snakes of the genus pituophis in the western US".

Terry Vandeventer and Robert young have some great articles in several Publications including Vivarium.

Alan Kardon did some great work with jani and published his findings.

Go grab a copy of Conant's field guide to herps of the Eastern US and Stebbin's guide to the western stuff. These folks literally pioneered the field guide concept that we now take for granted.

Javier Rodriguez-Robles and Jose Jesus-Escobar did a great bit of systematics and biogeography related genetic work on Pituophis in the late 90's and published their findings in Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution Vol. 14 No. 1 It is quite technical but is a great source of info regarding the understanding of "what are the differences between bulls, pines and gophers".

William Duellman studied the middle Am. Pituophis deppei and published in University of Kansas Publications Museum of Natural history.This work paves the way for pituophis lineaticollis gaining species status!

The list is huge!

Track these and other references down and you will get answers to your questions! The cool thing is that you can then use the "literature cited", or "References" sections of these publications. These are lists of all the things these authors read and used to build their works so a whole new set of info will be unlocked for you.

"What are are the differences between Bulls, gophers, and pines?" This seems like a simple enough question but it is not at all. You can't get the answer to that question on this forum, it is just too big of an answer. Take my advice and go exploring! When you open this door these wonderful creatures will become something more that a "white sided, triple het. thing in a cage", hopefully they will become a complex, multi-faceted look into the world of evolution, biogeography, and ecology! I am a bit lazy but if I ever get my act together I will post some form of comprehensive literature list for Pituophis until then you will have to do the leg work for yourself.

Ok, so I went a bit nuts there at the end but it is hard for me not to get really amped up about the PITUOPHIS!

Enjoy!

PS.

There is a husband and wife team in Texas working on what I think will be a very user friendly yet very informative treatment of the Genus Pituophis. I suspect that their own self demands for perfection will frustrate the publisher and ultimately slow the publication date but the finished product will be well worth the wait for both the casual Pituophis enthusiest as well as some of the more fanatical among us!!!

If you want an abreviated answer that largely means the same thing.

Pattern and porportions.

They are mostly very similar but if you look at enough examples of each pine/bull/gopher you will eventually be able to recognize which group a specimen is from. Similarly you will later be able to recognize the subgroupings. Unfortunately there is no easy litmus test identifications.

Sean.
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Thank you John,
I am working on a list of links along these lines to help myself and others out when looking for info. Thank you very much for the literature references. Your post is invaluable. Thanks again and take care.

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Jeremy Pierce
Shade Tree Exotics
shade-tree-exotics@att.net