Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just wondering why it seems that not that many people have a problem w/importation of animals from the wild.

Are ball pythons really that abundant in Africa, that it doesn't matter if we take thousands of them?

I think it's great to occasionally introduce some new blood into captive stock, but by the thousands?

Is just me here? Or does this seem overly excessive to anyone else?

It also seems to me that we have enough normal looking captive bred BP's at cheap prices. Why are people still buying these animals that are supposed to be born in the wild?
I get the fact that their is a slim possibility of getting something different. What I don't get, is why it would be worth the detriment to the wild population to get a morph that you can obtain by doing business with your fellow herpteculturists. It would also be better for the market, right?

No - we aren't making a dent in the wild populations.

There are lots of reasons why people buy Captive Hatched babies - for the fun - for the "what if" - for the experience - for the anticipation - for the new blood - because it's hard to find $10 captive born animals, etc. etc. ......
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Tosha
JET Pythons

I assume that there are a lot of hobbyist that are against imported ball pythons, including me, but it is a sore spot within the reptile community. That is most likely why many people did not speak up. Hope this helps.

Two words - "Sustainable Resource". This is an industry not only over here in the US, but in Africa. It's not going away any time soon, it's just too profitable on both ends.

And if left in the wild less then 1 percent of them would survive to breeding age. At least if they are brought into competent keepers they will live a long and healthy life.

Jeff

Well they form raise them over there and it doesn’t hurt the wild population at all ,but as for the numbers that they allow into the USA ,I think should be limited , it would help the hobby in the long run . Just so every one under stands me I think we should keep importing them but in far lesser numbers with some type of control system in place . As a rescuer I see way to many Balls Pythons coming thru the door . David

"I would rather be precisely wrong than approximately right"
Marion "Doc" Ford

It is a shame that so many are not cared for as they should be, but for the most part I think they have a better chance of survival here then over there.

Jeff

Yes but if we start to limit what we allow in to the USA then they will stop producing so many for export , It will be a win win situation for the Balls and for our Hobby . David

"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

No, they will continue to collect them and export the babies to other overseas markets, and all the adults will become collected for the skin/meat trade.

If the U.S says ok, only 1/2 the balls can come in next year its not going to stop the collectors from making there money, they will just find other ways to make it with the animals. Mainly meat and skin.

Stopping imports will only hurt the populations by having more and more adults taken for meat and skin if there is no baby market, a few breeders will be happy and fill there wallets, but the snakes will have to pay with there lives.

There has to be a way to import less of them and get the price higher here and in Africa so it keeps the collectors going to so they still consider them more valuable live for the "pet" trade then as skins or meat for Asian markets.
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J&J REPTILES
www.jnjreptiles.com
sales@jnjreptiles.com
(207)479-6658

"Stopping imports will only hurt the populations by having more and more adults taken for meat and skin if there is no baby market, a few breeders will be happy and fill there wallets, but the snakes will have to pay with there lives."

As opposed to now, when even fewer importers are happily filling their wallets, at the expense of who knows how many breeder females stripped of eggs, and then butchered for skins and meat?

There indeed has got to be a better way!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

as posted below, "farming" balls doesn't mean a seed is planted and a ball grows. they take gravid females and clutches from the wild, hatch them in bins, then export the babies. adult females are used for skin, meat or sometimes released, en masse in common baboon populations, where survival of those released females is then dismal as well.

make no mistake about it, our hobby has a significant effect on wild populations.

a small number of wild balls make it to adult hood, but for all the Captain-Save-A-Balls out there, a low percentage of captive balls make it to adults as well. our "hobby" sees PLENTY of dead loss in balls, burms, monitors, geckos, etc. numbers that should, as a reptile lover, shake your very soul.

i am not looking to have one extreme or the other, there must be a happy medium, but i don't know if we will find it.

i do know that seeing folks scramble for "unsorted bags" of balls, so that they can play the "lottery" and try for a fancy normal, while dumping the rest for sale to "make some quick money" doesn't exactly warm my heart either...
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

You're right-

There is no proof that the trade in so-called "farmed" balls is sustainable. LOTS of opinion, but no proof.

The demand could be satisfied from captive bred in this country, if competition from cheap wild animals was eliminated. At present, there is little incentive for breeding "normal" ball pythons due to this single factor.

But, for good or ill, it looks like importation will end sooner or later-powerful interests in the governmental, conservation, and animal rights arenas are aligning against it. We can only hope to negotiate favorable terms so that herpetoculturists in this country will, like aviculturists, still have acces to some "new blood" from wild animals.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

...will doom them long before over collecting.
joe

probably true. but seeing as balls love living in farmland, i don't think they will become a species of concern for a long time. I have heard folks describe certain species as adapting well to human habitats like raccoons and coyotes. some of the locals do eat them but they also like them because the protection from rats they get on farmlands. they are a useful species to humans and will be less likely to be wiped out anytime soon
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http://darkbloodwyvern.deviant.com

The hell of it is that most new info on reptiles if discovered by the avid hobbyist and if they hamstring us they are hurting the animals ,as more and more habitat is lost the hobbyist will be the only hope for the survival of most species , AND THAT IS A FACT !!!! One day there may be new habitat opened up for some of them and were do you think they will look to find the animals ? that’s right , US!!!! David

"I would rather be precisely wrong than approximately right"
Marion "Doc" Ford

the survival potential for CB snakes after release in the wild has been, in past studies, dismal. We should all work to preserve wild animals in in their native habitats as much as possible.

I would also point out that in order to have wild type balls to release someday, there has to be a market for them so breeders will breed them! Right now, there is not....
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

i originated the lottery post. i totally understand your concern for the wild populations, but how many of those babys do you honestly believe will live to adulthood? 5% if their lucky? to my knowledge they are farm raised for this purpose. how do you think we have all of these morphs? have you ever heard the saying "one mans garbage is another mans prize"? well thats kind of the case here. the africans could care less for them. so we as collectors provide them with money that im sure is desperately needed for the well being of their family.

chris

Does NOT mean "raised on farms". These animals are hatched in captivity from eggs harvested from wild-caught gravid females. Sometimes these females are returned to the wild. More often, they are used for the skin trade. Is this sustainable? I don't know. Neither do you. Ecological studies in Africa would be needed to answer that question. The numbers don't look good, however.

What is definitely true is that importation hurts the market for cb in the U.S. ball pythons.

I refer everyone to the Barker's book for an excellent overview on this subject.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I'm definitely going to have to study this topic some more; but what intuitively comes to me, are these questions:

Why would we want to make African citizens dependent on harvesting their wildlife?

Couldn't the trade have an latent effect on habitat loss?

Even if most of these captive hatched were to die in the wild, does it not support that local ecosystem?

Thank you for everyone's input on this topic.

Out of the percentage that would have surrvived in the wild, I wonder if that percentage might compare in captivity.
By taking into account the many hatchlings that end up in the hands of a novice who wants a cheap pet, and ends up killing them anyways.
It's a sad fact that people will care less about a cheap animal over an expensive one.

You are assuming that these "novice keepers" wouldn't mistreat or kill off cbb snakes? The truth is that the mistreatment of these animals has nothing to do with where they come from or how much they cost - it's purely a stupid person thing. I've gotten mistreated dying morphs into my rescue - these aren't cheap import animals - truth be told people are usually more willing to relinquish a "cheap" animal to a rescue for care and treatment than an expensive one - they'd rather see them die if they can't make their investment back.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

Sad, but true!!
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J&J REPTILES
www.jnjreptiles.com
sales@jnjreptiles.com
(207)479-6658

I think animal abuse will always exist because of misinformed/cruel/or unprepared people.

I just think that a $20-$40 animal is just ASKING for impulse buys by a novice who has done no prior research.

Impulse buying is not a exclusive to captive hatched balls - so I'm not sure where that argument comes into play.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

In general, I think that inexpensive things are less valuable to the public. Whether it be objects or animals. To me it's common sense;...... but I'm nobody, and admit that I know nothing.

Captive hatched BP's appear to make most breeders not want to breed normal BPs; but instead breed morphs.

It is all about money with many. You don't agree?

For instance, do the majority people who buy inexpensive green iguanas have the resources to commit to the adult? I think green Iguanas are one of the most expensive reptiles to maintain! Yet their purchase is so cheap!

As well, if a ball python is affordable to anyone, there will be a GREATER # of people who buy w/o taking into consideration the long term care. Thus the impulse buy.

I would think that the number of BP morphs sold to the few who have deep pockets yet no knowledge;.... are fewer than your common novice who spends $20 on a captive hatched.

I think these are valid questions and would like to offer my opinions as answers.

Why would we want to make African citizens dependent on harvesting their wildlife? I would imagine that there are plenty of other natural resources that are exploited to a far greater extent then Ball Pythons for the pet trade. Plus if it is a resource that has real value to their economy then I am sure they will take steps to protect the industry if a population problem does occur. An example would be how eco-tourism has replaced poaching in some areas. If the pet trade becomes more profitable then the skin or meat trade then they will shift in that direction. Or vis-versa for that matter.

Couldn't the trade have an latent effect on habitat loss? Yes. As I mentioned above if the resource becomes important to their economy then habitat protection would become a prime means of preserving wild populations. Do I think over collection would lead to loss of habitat? No. These animals are found in Savannah type environments so they are not clear cutting forest or destroying jungle habitats to collect these animals.

Even if most of these captive hatched were to die in the wild, does it not support that local ecosystem? I would imagine that the annual BP hatch is a valuable food source for some species, but personally I am not as concerned about whether or not if larger free ranging predators are having a little harder time finding snakes to eat. A reduction in available food does not eliminate predators it only controls their population numbers as does a reduction in rodent populations will with BP numbers.

Out of the percentage that would have survived in the wild, I wonder if that percentage might compare in captivity. i have heard plenty of numbers referring to how many CH baby Balls are imported every year. If you use an average number like 75,000 per year as your base I think it would work out something like this.
If 5 % survive to adult hood in the wild that would be 3,750. meaning that 71,250 would die. Now I know that 95% of the import babies do not die every year. If that was the case then for sure there would be no market for these babies here in the U.S. Even if 25% (18,750) of the import babies die each year you would still have 56,250 surviving.
Which is about 70% more animals survive through importation then would in the wild.

Jeff

about this comment:

"Out of the percentage that would have survived in the wild, I wonder if that percentage might compare in captivity. i have heard plenty of numbers referring to how many CH baby Balls are imported every year. If you use an average number like 75,000 per year as your base I think it would work out something like this.
If 5 % survive to adult hood in the wild that would be 3,750. meaning that 71,250 would die. Now I know that 95% of the import babies do not die every year. If that was the case then for sure there would be no market for these babies here in the U.S. Even if 25% (18,750) of the import babies die each year you would still have 56,250 surviving.
Which is about 70% more animals survive through importation then would in the wild."

To say it is better to import since more survive (which is what I perceived from your comment, maybe I'm wrong) is a little crazy. You basically made my point, we are not only importing thousands and thousands of babies (some claim over 100k a year, I couldn't find the CITES quota numbers) we are taking over 3750 future breeders out of the wilds of africa. Since the African "hatchers" are no longer returning any babies to the bush and most if not all of the females that have layed are either sold for meat, skin or the pet industry, there will eventually be a drastic drop of the numbers in the wild. Will this stop the collectors over there? Well the answer is no it won't, at least not until they can't find any more. They will take every bp that they can as long as we are willing to buy them. I do think there should be an actual quota so that the individuals that are actually breeding over there can make an income but to continually allow open selling determined by the market is crazy.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Josh, My comment is an attempt at answering the question / statement that was posted by violetdixie above "Out of the percentage that would have surrvived in the wild, I wonder if that percentage might compare in captivity". I don't believe I actually stated my postion on the importation of wild caught animals as a whole. But I am not opposed to the importation of these CH babies. Nor am I saying that importation is ok because more animals survive each year. Simply that the animals that are imported have a better chance at survival, which in my mind is not a bad thing. As for the 3750 animals. I am sure that that many less mouths to feed in the wild just means that those that are in the wild have a better supply of food. AKA: less competition. Jeff

The majority of people over in West Africa, and all over the continent are dependent on the land. If they aren't supported by the pet trade, they'll go the the bush meat/skin industries. You have to realize alot of the people ( the hunters and people employed by the exporters ) that are being supported by the pet trade have nothing. Very little in material value, and not enough food to go around. What would you do in that position? Feed your family or worry about how many Ball Pythons you have lying around? The numbers are sustainable, the study done in 98' proved this, and led to the fact that the populations are growing. More land clearing is helping the population. Any type of agriculture supports many prey items and causes their populations to soar, which causes the number of predators to grow. Simple cause and effect really; More Mice and Rats = more Ball Pythons.

...point me to the '98 study you referenced? I'm just curious and would like to see it. Thanks.

Rob

SURVEY OF THE STATUS AND MANAGEMENT OF THE ROYAL PYTHON (Python regius) IN GHANA

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Tosha
JET Pythons

....looks like good reading.

Rob

>> SURVEY OF THE STATUS AND MANAGEMENT OF THE ROYAL PYTHON (Python regius) IN GHANA
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>>Tosha
>> JET Pythons
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ball pythons in captivity have exploded in numbers. i am ignorant to the whats and ifs of importation, but i'd have to assume that this means far more are being imported now to meet our demands.

so... 1998 numbers may have been sustainable - but 2007 numbers may be a very different story.

whatever the case, i think its great the ball community has these discussions. myself, i dont like the idea of importing and believe breeders have enough, far more than enough, to work with in the breeding community. i dont care to think this or that will happen if we stop buying wild lots from africa - i just dont want to be part of the situation, good or bad. i'll keep buying from fellow breeders.

The worst aspect of the imports is their effect right here in this country-on the market for legitimately captive bred animals. This is not only an economic problem but a PR problem for us (as in how we are perceived by interested parties outside the hobby/industry). I'm afraid it will bite us in the end.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

honestly i agree. I don't really mind too much how the importation thing goes, but it upsets me that so many people in this country view reptiles as objects rather than pets that need to be respected. the lottery thing while harmless in and of itself, does seem to get a lot of people who just want a morph, not necessarily good normal breeders.
The mentality towards herps is bad enough from the outside. My boss a vet sometime tells me people shouldn't be allowed to own reptiles. It is mostly frustration since she always has to take care of battered and starved rescues. The sad thing is, when a dog comes in as a mistreated mess, it's "those people should not have a dog!" as if something is wrong with keeping a reptile as a pet, whereas birds dogs and cats are "acceptable" pets.
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http://darkbloodwyvern.deviant.com

My roommate also bought me the "Ball Pythons in the wild" DVD, which is a similar (if not the same) survey, it shows how many of the snakes are living in people's backyards.

balls are doing SO much better than any large african animal, probably better than snakes like retics and other "jungle" dwellers since they are the ones losing habitat rather than gaining it! I'd rather see burmese and retics eliminated from importation seeing as they are often killed just because people living near them are afraid of them!
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http://darkbloodwyvern.deviant.com

I don't know if you know this, but, Retic populations are booming despite heavy collecting for the skin trade. The land is being cleared for Palm/Date/whatever plantations or human developments which cause the Rat populations to soar. Not long after, the predators usually match those numbers. In this case, the Retics are no different. Matter of fact, large Retics (12 feet plus ) are common around the big cities, and they aren't the old war horse animals you'd find out in the bush.

neat! i did not know that. I had read something a long time ago about how they were "doomed" and was disheartened. I am glad they also seem to be doing well in human habitat. Hopefully they don't get into too much trouble with people!

thanks for the info.
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http://darkbloodwyvern.deviant.com