Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello,
I have not been able to purchase bales of aspen since the first of march and I am told they wont have any in until mid may. Can I use pine shavings until I can get aspen?
Thanks

Pine works just fine! Just make sure that it doesn't have any cedar mixed in with it. Good Luck!

Al Brown/Brown's Boas

I have raised, bred and birthed several different species on pine never had an issue with it! Rico Walder of Signal Herp one of the most respected names in the Reptile world kept and bred dumerils boas on it for close to twenty years with no ill effects.

Al Brown/Brown's Boas

Pine has oils that can cause respiratory issues for boas.
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1511361,1511361
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

Being the man of science that you are, I trust that you have some evidence to make a statemant like that. I know I have read it 100 times on various forums in the past few years, but I never was able to trace it back to someone who had done studies to prove it. I would mention it to someone if they asked me personally, but would not be so bold as to say it with confidence without confirming it.
I would imagine that you would have access to research notes on it, or have done research on it yourself. I couldn't see someone like yourself just taking information and saying basically that someone else said it, so it is true.
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Davey Giltner

Since it seems that people need more proof...

Pine and Cedar are both soft woods. They contain aromatic hydrocarbons and phenols. These chemicals have been linked to respiratory problems and affecting the liver. Studies that have been done have been done with people that work in the wood industry. Typically in lumber yards where they are around a lot of wood dust.

Toxicology study: http://www.emedicine.com/EMERG/topic873.htm
Notice the reference specifically listed as "Pine Oil".

The study focuses on affects to people. But then the question should be asked, why would you subject your animals to potential risks?

Test on lab rats: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3411916?dopt=Abstract
Pine is safer than Cedar, but still has problems.

More:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1164255?dopt=Abstract

More:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2926083?dopt=Abstract

This article written by two vets cites phenol and pine oil containing cleaning supplies as bad. http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?articleid=1611

One article did mention that heating Pine bedding will release the chemicals. So if you buy untreated and put it in a heated cage the problems can be worsened. However! If you buy Kiln Dried, as most if not all pet supply beddings are, there should be less of an issue or no issue at all.

Personally, why take the risk?

Petsmart sells Kaytee brand shredded and kiln dried Aspen. This is what I use for my boa not kept on paper. Kiln drying also helps with dust.
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

...Couldn't have said it better myself.

There is true pharmocological proof that the oil of softwoods creates problems.

Its the production of the bedding that inheritly increaces the risk, the breakdown of the wood at a cellular level during the chipping creates the hazard as it increases the transfer two fold. One the blunt force breaks and splits the rather than a clean cut and second being the product isn't dried, leaving it to off gas overtime which of course is the oil.

That is not to say that all Pine is bad. Kiln dried lumber or plywood even the pine used in products like MDF, particle board or Melamine coated panels. While low risk is safe for use in reptile caging.

Its the bedding products of soft woods particualrly those know for the aromatic nature that create the problem. Its the Oil!

That's not to say that Aspen bedding, Oak bedding, or Walnut bedding wouldn't contain Oil that could create a risk. Its just not as potent as the soft woods, and there is far less.

Just stay away from soft wood bedding...........
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

0.1 Snow "Khal" RTB
1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.0 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
3.1 Red Bearded Dragon's
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0.1 Child

SInce we are using Rat links , can we also use rabbit?

http://www.bio.davidson.edu/Courses/anphys/1999/Cook/Text.htm
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Davey Giltner

That was actually the wrong link...here is the one I meant to post.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/1155/Pine.html
I don't have a probelm showing the other one that also shows that pine may be hazardous, but it also mentions that aspen had growths in its variable samples as well.
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Davey Giltner

I've had this problem before ( no aspen ) and had to use pine with no problems.

IMO I think it's alright to use pine shavings. Way back, before there was much known about keeping reptiles, a LOT of people used it. I was one of those people who used pine shavings. I used it for YEARS with with many types of snakes. I'd still be using it, but I've found that newspaper or those brown cage liners make it faster and easier to clean cages.

In all the years I used pine shavings my snakes never had any problems. They reproduced, ate, shed, passed poo and just about anything else you can think of. I never had a single problem.

BTW It's been 23 years since I used pine shavings. Back then "everyone" I knew, that had snakes, kept them on pine.

As other posters have said that actually have first hand experience with the subject (rather then something they read and instantly became experts with) you can use Pine as a bedding. I used it off and on for years in a pine/aspen mix when I ran low on cypress mulch and never had any ill effects.
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Randall L Turner Jr.
Boas make the world go round.

Good one Randy!
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Boaphile Home
All Original/Boaphile Plastics
The Boa Network

I haven't used it in years either but never had an issue with it. I have a good friend of mine who uses it and has done so for many years. He keeps hundreds of snakes including Colubrids, Ball Pythons and Boas.
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Boaphile Home
All Original/Boaphile Plastics
The Boa Network

Not My preferred substrate, but I've used it many times without issue.

Wow that turned out to be quite a topic. I posted to see if I could use pine shavings temporarily until I can get more aspen. I have another problem now My wife loves the smell of the fresh pine forest.
Thank all of you for your input.
Joel Thomas