Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Not trying to start another argument regarding this topic so please don't turn this into a thread into a [bleep]ing match.

I just want everyone that plans on buying imports to try and do their research of what they are buying.

Things to think about:

-The treatment of these animals while in Africa.

-How some animals are torn from their dens.

-How they are shipped in the crates and how many die in the import.

-How the animals are being treated once they make it to the States by dealers that do not have the means to care for the animals.

Please know that there are many responsible importers that care very well for all animals in their collections but for every well treated animal there is one that is not. Especially in an industry that normal imports are only here to find one in 10,000 that may be genetic. Look at how breeders are selling their imported animal. If there are a hundred sick looking imports in a tank for $10 each. These animals are most likely not getting the best care. Think of the animals that did not make it to the show because they died in import or while in care.

These views are from my experience in the industry. I have seen enough of these animals suffer for a couple of bucks to make me want to speak out. People that deny these conditions are most likely the ones profiting from this mistreatment of these animals we all supposedly love. Purchasing these animals only supports the unnecessary mistreatment. Do we not have enough BP's and genetic mutation for 100 years?

I respect and invite all opinions.

Mods,

Please excuse the obscenity in the opening line. I wasn't aware this was considered an obscenity until after I posted. Please don't pull this due to this. I believe this is a valid industry discussion that people should talk about. Thank you.

First off, these posts have been going on for years. Some think importing is ok and others think it's wrong. I for one am in the middle. There will always be animals that die, whether imports or cb animals. I've seen perfectly healthy animals that cost over $20k just up and die (not in my collection, I can't afford an animal like that). It wasn't from bad care but the animal died none the less. Do alot of animals die during importation, possibly. Do alot of animals die from improper housing, possibly. If these animals weren't imported for the pet trade would they all die at the leather or meat facilities, ABSOLUTELY!!! That is one aspect that alot of people forget about. If these animals weren't gathered for the pet trade, they would be sold to the leather or Asian meat markets.

Another point to be made is that most breeders don't deal with wild-caught adults unless they are a morph or at least very crazy looking with the hopes it proves out. I've never seen a reputable breeder with tanks upon tanks of wild caught adults on it. If I ever do, I will realize that I won't buy from them as they don't care about the possible introduction of parasites to their breeding colony/babies. As people are buying less and less of the ch babies each year do to the decrease in profit margin on keeping large scale colonies, less and less of the ch babies and wc adults will make their way into this country. This is a good thing for the most part. The buying public will in general be buying cb animals that are mostly healthy and feeding already. The mortality rate on these will be lower but not eradicated. The bad thing is that all the animals that won't be comming over here anymore with a chance at survival will be headed for certain death at the leather/meat facilities. It's a pick your poison type of debate. So I say, allow limited importing which will hopefully continue the habitat preservation (or at least slow down the destruction of it) and allow new morphs/blood into this country.
-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

As both more normals are produced here as the by product of breeding dominant genes and the prices on the low ends visuals fall to cheaper and cheaper prices there will continue to be a down trend in the volume of babies coming in from Africa. If a normal and a pastel or spider are close to the same price in a pet shop most people will buy the pastel or spider. Male pastels have already been sold wholesale for $50 and less for a couple years now. This year the number of farmed babies coming in from Africa is way down from a few years ago. It is also likely that the CITES will be cut further as it has been discussed for years and less will be available to come in.

I think evansnakes has a valid point. one day, the imports will not be worth the effort unless they are really unusual looking or a breeder thinks they need new blood.

Balls habitat= farmland, basically human habitations that cover most of the country. The things that may cause problems for balls are chemicals like rat poison, and getting killed for food or their skins. I do think importation isn't always the best, but i don't think it should be eliminated. I also think that many other animals are in much more immediate need of help. perhaps instead of buying a bag of balls, some folks might donate to some legitimate WWF style fund.
-----
http://darkbloodwyvern.deviant.com

And, as can be seen from the classified, many breeders are in the rocess of replacing their normal females with codoms. As Eric pointed out, sooner or later (probably sooner) CITES will make this discussion moot.

Question is, how many "normal" balls will still be in breeding programs once that happens?
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Hey maybe eventually normals will be the rare expecives ones? Anyway for my opinion. We WILL NOT stop the pet trade so I don't even try. No matter how bad anyone treats there pets or how many die everyone always wants there fuzzy, furry, slithery little pet in the corner. I agree that when new species or at least new to the triad are found they should be imported, studied and maybe enter the pet trade depending on there rarity. But I do not agree with the importation or wild capture of animals that already have a sustainable market in America such as Corn snakes, King snakes and yes Ball pythons.
Foot Hill Reptiles

Thanks for all of your replies so far.

Something that I disagree with from Joshua's post is that there are not many breeders that deal with adult BP's. Maybe not the hundreds of thousands of BP's that have been imported in the past years but there is a significant market for Gravid Adults. We all see them come in a couple of months before the babies arrive.

What I don't know and would love to have an answer to are how many of Gravid Adults imported are farmed and how many are taken from the Wild?

Taking Gravid females from the wild just seems so wrong.

There would be no herps at all in the US (except for native species) if it wasn't for importing. There would be no ball morphs, no boa morphs, and none of the other cool stuff that has been shipped in. Sad as it is sometimes...it's an industry and it isn't going away.
-----
Matt Lerer
'Ghi Reptiles'
Ghi Reptiles

That's just what the bird keepers said. Now, for them, importing has "gone away"....

Someday it will happen to us-we should be ready.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

At the rate and direction the world is moving it is also something to think about that many species of common pet trade reptiles and amphibians if not imported and bred here will likely be extinct some day in the not too distant future. There are several examples of geckos and boas that are gone or almost gone in the wild that are very common here in the USA.

So taking hundreds of thousands of these animals out of their natural environment will help this? Wrong mind set if your trying to protect animals.

I doubt the intentions of 99.999999 percent of the importers is anything but money. You can't doubt that. Throwing up smoke to say that this will help benefit the animals protections is ridiculous.

That is not what I said. I stated facts. Some animals unfortunately only will have a future in captivity due to many things that are happening in this world. Frog species are dissapearing from the wild at an alarming rate and becoming completly extinct. Scientists do not know why. As I said, there are boas and geckos that are common in captivity here that are either close to extinction in the wild or are there. It is not relevant what your emotions on the subject are, I am telling you the facts of the matter, animals are dissapearing from the earth. Maybe due to destruction of habitat, pollution, global warming... nobody knows for sure. But like it or not some species only will exist in captive breeding programs in zoos and private collections. Your holier than thou attitude and jumping on every poster here helps nothing. I have been in this business for 20 years now and have seen many animals drop out of the trade that used to be common that are not any longer. If an animal survives through captive breeding only as opposed to vanishes from the earth entirely you are not in support of the captive breeding of that species?

Evan, your right we should try and save animals from absolute extinction by breeding in captivity. What my "holier than thou attitude" is trying to get across is that we should not use this as a justification to import and mistreat these animals. You don't attack a problem like this from that angle. You attack it at the source of the problem. Why are we contributing to the problem is what I'm asking.

Obviously BP's will not be going fully extinct anytime soon due to the captive breeding. So why do we need to import anymore animals when there are obviously enough in the trade at this point. Do we not have enough genes to last us 100 years, seeing new combos as well as new genes popping up every year? So the only thing driving people to import is the money. Greed = Animals Dying, simple as that.

I am glad to hear people say that the numbers of imported BP's is declining. So maybe me speaking up has contributed a little bit. Maybe not but that is what this forum is about right? Enjoying the animals we love, posting pictures, learning the hobby/business and speaking out on issues that concern us. If that is not OK with you then please let the rest of the forum know this.

Yes, I enjoy a good discussion/debate. Yes, I knew that there would be strong opinions about this but we all need to grow up and stop taking this so personally. When someone disagrees with your opinion debate it without getting so personal with comments that attack someone. This just shows what the industry buzz has told me about certain people.

You are acting like a child. Of course I do not care that anyone posts anything they want relavent to ball pythons here. I am and always have been an outspoken advocate of free speech having worked for many years as both a writer and editor of several magazines and newspapers, managing a public relations office for a state university, etc..

I never attacked you. You are making the classic mistake that most people learn not to make either in debate or public speech in high school or maybe later in life in their career. You are short on facts and stating an emotional argument as though it were fact. You do not seem to know much about the subject you have chosen to champion here. And no, your speech here, now, after the ball pythons are all pre-sold in Africa already and due to ship in has not stopped anyone from buying them. The numbers declining are due to the FACTS that I stated in my previous posts and other factors like the downturn in the pet trade here due to poor economic climate.

And then you run and cry that you are being attacked and that I am assaulting your rights to free speech when people disagree with you, EXTREMELY POLITELY by the way, no name calling, no insults, no attacks, just pointing out the facts that you fail to cover. People here are tired of that old play. You ask for discussion you need to be prepared for disagreement.

You can gripe all you want about what you see as a problem. The reality is that you fail to recognize that many people in other parts of the world rely on their entire families income from ball pythons being shipped to the USA. On top of that there are people in this country and a dozen others that make money on the ball pythons so there is not much incentive to stop the importation. You call it greed but you derive your income from something, right? Well to many around the world that is their job.

If you feel that strongly about it instead of complaining here go and write and sponsor some new legislation to ban the importation of ball pythons. Nobody here will likely support you since that is what the government has been trying to do and it will mean the likely end of all reptile importation if not all animal importation, which would make many in government very happy. What it would do here is effectively end the pet trade. Something many of us have been fighting very hard to prevent for a long time.

Complaining helps nobody. Do something about it if you feel so strongly. I may disagree with your position but at least then I would respect you for acting instead of just talking.