Reptile & Amphibian Forums

found the website for the American Cornsnake Registry today. What an awesome resource that must be for cornsnake breeders. In theory being able to trace where colours have originated from. Im also a little skeptical about it though, as who to say when someone puts up something that its actual factual, or if its just someone trying to gain some credit or jump a few steps. It has got me thinking though, im still caught up trying to work out whìch of my snakes will get bred to the others. I have the anery pair now, but they are siblings. I can either breed them together, which gives me a full clutch of anerys, which is of course great for the money side of things, but more importantly lets me prove that the anery gene i have is recessive and i do end up with a whole clutch. Or i can out cross them both, and end up with many 100% hets. But what is better, proving it to be the anery gene, or getting it crossed out to many other snakes? Be interested to know what people did with there first morphs, did you line bred or outcross to start with?
What are the problems associated with in breeding as such in snakes? and by outcrossing the genes, can anything happen to them, ie the genes alter somehow so that they are not compatible? (might be a stupid question, so give me a stupid answer if it is) but have wondered about it.
Now back to sort of what i was trying to get at, and it was the cornsnake registry that can me thinking about it. Are breeders in the BRB community open with each other about what they are producing or trying to produce? ie trying to work out which lines are working with what (different hypo and anery lines for example) or are there many hidden jackpots hidden amongst breeders racks? are there brb ghosts already, albino hets in collings cages, where are the stripes etc etc etc? Would be great to sort of know a family tree of the morphs, as i guess there still arent that many around. Maybe hets, but not full blown aneries and hypos. For example is my anerys, at first i was skeptical, but now have seen birth pics of them, and they much much more black and white. Now im guessing that they have come from the seib line, but i cant be sure. It would be a great thing to know though, as when i next purchase one, i would want to decide if was going for a same line or another line, to see if compatible

sorry it 3am here, and im rambling along about what ever is in my head, feel like im turning into frank n/p roberts!!!
-----
Dave

2.2 Normal BRBs
0.1 Anery BRB
2.1 66% poss het anery BRB
1.1 het hypo BRB

Paid for, but stuck in europe somewhere hope to get from next german show
1.0 Anery BRB
0.1 66% poss het anery BRB
2.5 66% poss het new european line hypo

Dave,
....I have an answer for only one or two of your questions. You asked if it is better to first prove out a line or to outcross them first. It seems to me that breeding them together to prove the heritability of the trait is of utmost importance. If you outcross them by breeding the male to two or three unrelated females and the female to an unrelated male you could find yourself with a couple dozen babies that would be het. for what is an unproven trait. It is not likely that people would be willing to pay very much over normal petstore price for hets of an unproven trait. You would probably not want to let them go for low prices and allow someone else the chance to make good money off of them later after you or they do prove the heritability of the trait. You could be stuck with dozens of animals for several years to raise up and breed. The time and effort of raising up hets of a proven trait can be trying enough. Adding the questionability of the heritability of the trait would make the time and effort invested seem enormous.
....I do think there are many different Rainbow Boa morphs being kept secretly. For example I was tolb about an albino Argentinian Rainbow in the collection of some very well known herp people many years ago. I do not know if the animal produced any babies or even if it is still alive though I suspect they were not successful with it. The potential to make money is the greatest when a morph is newly recognized by the herp community. If you tell everyone about a morph several years before you are able to produce any babies the value of the babies will be diminished at least to some extent because people no longer consider it to be a "new" morph.
Good luck,
Jeff

>>found the website for the American Cornsnake Registry today. What an awesome resource that must be for cornsnake breeders. In theory being able to trace where colours have originated from. Im also a little skeptical about it though, as who to say when someone puts up something that its actual factual, or if its just someone trying to gain some credit or jump a few steps. It has got me thinking though, im still caught up trying to work out whìch of my snakes will get bred to the others. I have the anery pair now, but they are siblings. I can either breed them together, which gives me a full clutch of anerys, which is of course great for the money side of things, but more importantly lets me prove that the anery gene i have is recessive and i do end up with a whole clutch. Or i can out cross them both, and end up with many 100% hets. But what is better, proving it to be the anery gene, or getting it crossed out to many other snakes? Be interested to know what people did with there first morphs, did you line bred or outcross to start with?
>>What are the problems associated with in breeding as such in snakes? and by outcrossing the genes, can anything happen to them, ie the genes alter somehow so that they are not compatible? (might be a stupid question, so give me a stupid answer if it is) but have wondered about it.
>>Now back to sort of what i was trying to get at, and it was the cornsnake registry that can me thinking about it. Are breeders in the BRB community open with each other about what they are producing or trying to produce? ie trying to work out which lines are working with what (different hypo and anery lines for example) or are there many hidden jackpots hidden amongst breeders racks? are there brb ghosts already, albino hets in collings cages, where are the stripes etc etc etc? Would be great to sort of know a family tree of the morphs, as i guess there still arent that many around. Maybe hets, but not full blown aneries and hypos. For example is my anerys, at first i was skeptical, but now have seen birth pics of them, and they much much more black and white. Now im guessing that they have come from the seib line, but i cant be sure. It would be a great thing to know though, as when i next purchase one, i would want to decide if was going for a same line or another line, to see if compatible
>>
>>sorry it 3am here, and im rambling along about what ever is in my head, feel like im turning into frank n/p roberts!!!
>>-----
>>Dave
>>
>>2.2 Normal BRBs
>>0.1 Anery BRB
>>2.1 66% poss het anery BRB
>>1.1 het hypo BRB
>>
>>Paid for, but stuck in europe somewhere hope to get from next german show
>>1.0 Anery BRB
>>0.1 66% poss het anery BRB
>>2.5 66% poss het new european line hypo

thanks heaps for that response jeff. Thought that might be the case with people having a few different things locked away

As for the breedings though, as i am in this for the long run, and money aside, what is better for the gene itself, i mean are there any problems with breeding siblings? Has anyone had any disastrous results from this? Also seeing that the parents of my anerys were supposedly het aneries. If i do breed my anerys together, and get a full clutch of anerys, is it considered proven? I have tried to buy the het parents, to use breeding back, but the guy wasnt having any of it, and fair enough too. As for the money side, yes it would be beneficial, bujt in some ways i would prefer to say in 6 years, be able to offer people anerys and hets, from a few different lines. To me there is only so much inbreeding that can be done, and seeing there must have been a bit already in this line, is there a breaking point somewhere. If an unscroupolus breeder ends up with a clutch of not so healthy for example anerys, surely they will still try and flog them off for the profit, with the result being just more snakes out there, that arent necessarily good for the morph. Sorry rambling again.

PS what is the plural for anery?? Anerys or aneries?

Cheers
-----
Dave

2.2 Normal BRBs
0.1 Anery BRB
2.1 66% poss het anery BRB
1.1 het hypo BRB

Paid for, but stuck in europe somewhere hope to get from next german show
1.0 Anery BRB
0.1 66% poss het anery BRB
2.5 66% poss het new european line hypo

Dave,
...Let me play the Devil's advocate for a moment. How do you know your snakes are really anerythristic and not within the VERY large spectrum of normally pigmented Brazilian Rainbow Boas? When I used to visit the importers looking for these snakes I passed up some that seemed to have no red pigment at all. They just looked like they were a little browner and plainer than the mahogany colored normal ones.
...We use the terms anerythristic and hypomelanistic like they are nouns but they are actually adjectives. So rather than saying that you have multiple anerythristics or multiple anerys it would be more grammatically correct to say that you have multiple anerythristic Brazilian Rainbow Boas. The English language is constantly changing and if there were lots more people using the terms anery and hypo like we do the lexicographers would eventually add them to the dictionary as nouns.
...Take nothing I say about the English language or grammar as the truth because I very well could not know what I am talking about. After all, I am the master of the runon sentence.
Jeff

>>thanks heaps for that response jeff. Thought that might be the case with people having a few different things locked away
>>
>>As for the breedings though, as i am in this for the long run, and money aside, what is better for the gene itself, i mean are there any problems with breeding siblings? Has anyone had any disastrous results from this? Also seeing that the parents of my anerys were supposedly het aneries. If i do breed my anerys together, and get a full clutch of anerys, is it considered proven? I have tried to buy the het parents, to use breeding back, but the guy wasnt having any of it, and fair enough too. As for the money side, yes it would be beneficial, bujt in some ways i would prefer to say in 6 years, be able to offer people anerys and hets, from a few different lines. To me there is only so much inbreeding that can be done, and seeing there must have been a bit already in this line, is there a breaking point somewhere. If an unscroupolus breeder ends up with a clutch of not so healthy for example anerys, surely they will still try and flog them off for the profit, with the result being just more snakes out there, that arent necessarily good for the morph. Sorry rambling again.
>>
>>PS what is the plural for anery?? Anerys or aneries?
>>
>>Cheers
>>-----
>>Dave
>>
>>2.2 Normal BRBs
>>0.1 Anery BRB
>>2.1 66% poss het anery BRB
>>1.1 het hypo BRB
>>
>>Paid for, but stuck in europe somewhere hope to get from next german show
>>1.0 Anery BRB
>>0.1 66% poss het anery BRB
>>2.5 66% poss het new european line hypo

fair point, and easy answer is i dont know if they are or are not anerythristic brazilian rainbow boas but that is what im intending to find out. I have made the assumption that they are, on the grounds of thats what they were sold as, and that what they look like. But as i have previously said, im a tad skeptical just cos its such a new morph. From what you have said though, what makes a snake truly an anery? As opposed to a different colour variation? If it can produce a clutch of the same looking snakes, that are very grey and white at birth and darken up with age. Can it just be a colour morph. Or is that exactly what the anery is? Then the same can be applied to hypo, what makes it a hypo in our eyes? I guess it all goes back to what i wrote in start of last message, who can and cant you trust, just because someone is not a big name breeder does that mean they can not have some weird morphs? Im going on what the breeder has told me, and from my many emails to me, he certainly seems to know his stuff. Many conversations about the geneticss of a variety of snakes.

You got to start somewhere!!!
-----
Dave

2.2 Normal BRBs
0.1 Anery BRB
2.1 66% poss het anery BRB
1.1 het hypo BRB

Paid for, but stuck in europe somewhere hope to get from next german show
1.0 Anery BRB
0.1 66% poss het anery BRB
2.5 66% poss het new european line hypo

Dave,

Can you sum up what the breeder told you about the method he used
to prove "anerythrism" in BRB's is simple recessive? Or maybe post one of his e-mail (with his permission?) Or maybe ask him to post here in the forum? I think a lot of people are curious about this!

Thanks,
Ed

>> Im going on what the breeder has told me, and from my many emails to me, he certainly seems to know his stuff. Many conversations about the geneticss of a variety of snakes.
>>
>>You got to start somewhere!!!

i will work on that, give me a day or 2. As i want to hear more of the story aswell

Cheers
-----
Dave

2.2 Normal BRBs
0.1 Anery BRB
2.1 66% poss het anery BRB
1.1 het hypo BRB

Paid for, but stuck in europe somewhere hope to get from next german show
1.0 Anery BRB
0.1 66% poss het anery BRB
2.5 66% poss het new european line hypo

i will work on that, give me a day or 2. As i want to hear more of the story aswell

Cheers
-----
Dave

2.2 Normal BRBs
0.1 Anery BRB
2.1 66% poss het anery BRB
1.1 het hypo BRB

Paid for, but stuck in europe somewhere hope to get from next german show
1.0 Anery BRB
0.1 66% poss het anery BRB
2.5 66% poss het new european line hypo

Do you know if their parents were related to each other. I would decide on inbreeding based on that. If it's a first generation inbreeding, I would breed the aneries, but if their parents were inbred for 1 or 2 generations, then the line could possibly have been proven and you should outcross. I'm assuming though that you probably don't know the origin of your snakes as you were thinking ours might be related. If its a Tom Chiang, which I doubt, I think the only other anery he's sold was a male and the odds of it making it overseas would be pretty slim, but either way, if it is, the parents were half siblings. I'm planning on breeding my anery male to his 66% poss het sisters, but this is just to prove them out. If the origins of your line are truly unknown, I don't see that you have a choice other than to breed them together and see what you get! Good Luck!

Without knowing the specific history to your animals, any future purchase will be a guess if it's compatible. Heck, it's not even known now if any of the anery or hypo lines are compatible or not.

IMO, new morph 101....

Step one - acquire new morph animal(s) Many methods including but not limited to - WC animals, Offspring from WC animals, purchasing from whatever source at ??? pricing, breeding siblings for spontaneous new morph (like Mike did) etc.

Step two - (duh) raise them up, yeah an obvious one but then again you can't do ANYTHING towards proving ANYTHING until you complete that all important second step.

Step three - Breeding trials.

IMO there are three sepoerate breeding trials that have to be done to fully prove anything and I'm sure others will expand that to say multiples of each for supporting proof.

A) Visual Morph to unrelated normal - proves or disproves dominant morph. Three possible outcomes...
I) all morphs = Probable dominant morph and your animal is homozygous.
II) 1/2(ish) morph 1/2(ish) normal = probable dominant morph and your animal is het.
III) all normal = possible recessive morph, your animal is homozygous and all offspring are hets. (the other possibilities are polygenic morph where multiple genes are involved or simple one off, non genetic freak of nature.

B) Het to Het or het to visual - can partially prove recessive nature of the morph

C) Visual to Visual - litter of all visuals along with other breeding trials would prove recessive nature.

Since you have visual siblings, BY ALL MEANS breed them together that first year. Duh, a litter of morphs but also one important step towards proving the line/morph. I would also use that visual male for any of the other breeding trials I could. Bred in a 1.3 group consisting of 1.0 visual, 0.1 visual, 0.1 het (if you have one) and 0.1 unrelated normal. This way most of your breeding trials will be done the first year and assuming all the litters fall withing expected outcomes, you will NOT have completely proven it but will be close and can market them with your known results as evidence of probable morph status. IMO the most important of those breedings is the visual to the normal as that part of the breeding trials is a two generation process and the sooner you get started, the sooner you can finish.

Again, all is my thoughts on the subject and breeding trials to prove out morphs need to be flexible and subject to modification as individual litters are born (or fail to become gravid/slug out). For example, your visual to visual could be inbred to the point that some of the babies are born with defects. May still be valid as proof but those defective babies would not help increase your founding stock. Even the healthy ones would be risky to breed.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

nah thanks for that, best step by step have had yet. Oh and no comment on the albino het remark i made dave??

Well the plans i have now which im sure will change a billion times before breeding age is

Anery 1.0 x poss 66% het anery 0.1 to try and find if is a het.
Anery 1.0 x my new 66% poss het euro new line hypo. I count this as a normal and am doing this as the normal has a very remarkable pattern. Plus as would be keeping the babies for a 2nd generation breeding, both for the pattern side of thing plus the het anery side. if the girl does turn to out to be a hypo, im a little ahead aswell.
Anery 1.0 x anery 0.1 pretty obvious

Whether i let the male breed 3 times in his first breeding year, will be another question.

The other poss het girl, will be just given another year under her belt to get a bit older.

As for the poss hets boys, well havent fiqured that out yet.

PS and sorry for some of my double posts, im using a handheld nokia communicator, and it seems to make things post twice sometimes
-----
Dave

2.2 Normal BRBs
0.1 Anery BRB
2.1 66% poss het anery BRB
1.1 het hypo BRB

Paid for, but stuck in europe somewhere hope to get from next german show
1.0 Anery BRB
0.1 66% poss het anery BRB
2.5 66% poss het new european line hypo

photos L.Kuvar Czech

ratio of anery looking roughly 1/4 (will get exact numbers), parents purchased as het anery from the states roughly 5years ago, brought here to a german show and purchased there. The breeder has been mainly breedring burmese morphs for the last 20years, also bcc and bci. Co owner of snakes with another czech breeder.

his english not perfect, and thats about all i got. Looking at the pics though, those births one are more than just a slightly darker normal IMO

opinions??? i reckon i have lucked onto something anyway
-----
Dave

2.2 Normal BRBs
0.1 Anery BRB
2.1 66% poss het anery BRB
1.1 het hypo BRB

Paid for, but stuck in europe somewhere hope to get from next german show
1.0 Anery BRB
0.1 66% poss het anery BRB
2.5 66% poss het new european line hypo

on these pics, the babies do look much more black and white as young ones in these pictures. You can also see why i thought they could possibly have originated from the seib line, anyone know where his line orginated, where they WC and he got lucky or?
-----
Dave

2.2 Normal BRBs
0.1 Anery BRB
2.1 66% poss het anery BRB
1.1 het hypo BRB

Paid for, but stuck in europe somewhere hope to get from next german show
1.0 Anery BRB
0.1 66% poss het anery BRB
2.5 66% poss het new european line hypo

I can honestly say I do not have any known albino genes in any of my BRB's.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

just plenty of unknown ones? hehe
-----
Dave

2.2 Normal BRBs
0.1 Anery BRB
2.1 66% poss het anery BRB
1.1 het hypo BRB

Paid for, but stuck in europe somewhere hope to get from next german show
1.0 Anery BRB
0.1 66% poss het anery BRB
2.5 66% poss het new european line hypo

let me re-phrase that.....

At this point in time I do not have any BRB's that are in any way related to any animal known to have or suspected to even possibly have an albino gene. Nor do I have any such BRB coming again at this point in time.

Not to say I never will, just that the opportunity has not presented itself yet.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

to have albino genes hiding in our stock that want to show up... anytime!!! Wouldn't that be the greatest surprise!

Dave,
...The more I have thought about it the more I think your "new morph 101" says it all in as few words as possible. You have to be wordy to cover all the angles on the subject.
Jeff

>>Without knowing the specific history to your animals, any future purchase will be a guess if it's compatible. Heck, it's not even known now if any of the anery or hypo lines are compatible or not.
>>
>>IMO, new morph 101....
>>
>>Step one - acquire new morph animal(s) Many methods including but not limited to - WC animals, Offspring from WC animals, purchasing from whatever source at ??? pricing, breeding siblings for spontaneous new morph (like Mike did) etc.
>>
>>Step two - (duh) raise them up, yeah an obvious one but then again you can't do ANYTHING towards proving ANYTHING until you complete that all important second step.
>>
>>Step three - Breeding trials.
>>
>>IMO there are three sepoerate breeding trials that have to be done to fully prove anything and I'm sure others will expand that to say multiples of each for supporting proof.
>>
>>A) Visual Morph to unrelated normal - proves or disproves dominant morph. Three possible outcomes...
>> I) all morphs = Probable dominant morph and your animal is homozygous.
>> II) 1/2(ish) morph 1/2(ish) normal = probable dominant morph and your animal is het.
>> III) all normal = possible recessive morph, your animal is homozygous and all offspring are hets. (the other possibilities are polygenic morph where multiple genes are involved or simple one off, non genetic freak of nature.
>>
>>B) Het to Het or het to visual - can partially prove recessive nature of the morph
>>
>>C) Visual to Visual - litter of all visuals along with other breeding trials would prove recessive nature.
>>
>>Since you have visual siblings, BY ALL MEANS breed them together that first year. Duh, a litter of morphs but also one important step towards proving the line/morph. I would also use that visual male for any of the other breeding trials I could. Bred in a 1.3 group consisting of 1.0 visual, 0.1 visual, 0.1 het (if you have one) and 0.1 unrelated normal. This way most of your breeding trials will be done the first year and assuming all the litters fall withing expected outcomes, you will NOT have completely proven it but will be close and can market them with your known results as evidence of probable morph status. IMO the most important of those breedings is the visual to the normal as that part of the breeding trials is a two generation process and the sooner you get started, the sooner you can finish.
>>
>>
>>Again, all is my thoughts on the subject and breeding trials to prove out morphs need to be flexible and subject to modification as individual litters are born (or fail to become gravid/slug out). For example, your visual to visual could be inbred to the point that some of the babies are born with defects. May still be valid as proof but those defective babies would not help increase your founding stock. Even the healthy ones would be risky to breed.
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>
>>Dave Colling
>>
>>www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
>>
>>
>>
>>0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
>>0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
>>
>>LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
>>26.49 BRB
>>20.21 BCI
>>And those are only the breeders
>>
>>lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I do love the challange of morphs. Definitely goes a level beyond just breeding them (which can be a challange all by itslef) I've spent a fair amount of time trying to understand the nuances of morph breeding and have a fairly good handle on it. Bottom line it it's not easy and even harder when dealing with a new morph and/or multiple morph animals when they are new and not available. For example ghost BRB is new, not even produced as of yet and would be difficult to get into and two generations for most since DH ghost are not available. On the other hand Ghost BCI would be easy to get into since Ghost and DH animals are relatively easy to acquire.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats