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I checked up on the Boas this morning only to find that my female Motley had decided to drop her litter 2 weeks early! It turns out that this was probably due to the high percentage of slugs in the litter. There were 28 slugs & 6 premmies, unfortunatley none survived.

The female Motley was bred to one of our T positive Albino males (European line).

Copulation

Ovulation

There is however a twist to this very sad story...............

Of the six premature Boas delivered there were two motleys het T positive, two normals het T positive & two others that appear resemble SUPER MOTLEYS!?

If they are indeed what they appear to be there is something very interesting happening here. One theory is that the male T positive Albino (which has a genetic striped tail) may have a pattern mutation that is compatable with the Motley gene?

Opinions (& sympathy) welcome!

Thanks

Marc Norrie
Selective Bred Reptiles
www.selectivebred.com

more likely a result of parthenogenic reproduction. I'll bet the babies were also not het t . weird stuff. sorry about the bum litter

Parthenogenic reproduction would result is clones which would only be Motleys just like Mom. Parthenogenic reproduction I think is too often blamed when there are other explanation possibilities. More likely a male Motley had bred this female sometime in the past.
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Has there ever been a documented case of parthenogenic reproduction where the mother has a co-dominant mutation? I have heard of animals where the mother was homozygous for a recessive mutation and passed the gene off to all the offspring but I have also heard of a circumstance where a male anery that was NOT het snow bred a female anery that was a possible het snow and there was one preemie snow in the litter. If this was a result of parthenogenic reproduction then it couldnt be a carbon copy but more like mom screwing herself. This might not have been the case but it sure makes me scratch my head

One snow preemie would most likely be from a sperm with the Anery and Albino gene in it hanging around from a previous breeding. I know that has happened before. For instance an Anery being bred by an Albino expecting to result in all double het for snows with an anery or two in the litter. These resulted from sperm from a previous breeding. At least that is a logical explanation.

Parthenogenic reproduction is not the result of a female breeding herself. That would require her being a female as well as a male and producing sperm. That would be a Hermaphrodite. I don't think that occurs in any reptiles. Parthenogenic reproduction is by definition, in layman's terms, since that is all I am, is a female making carbon copies or clones of herself.
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That would make sense but i'm pretty sure there were no albino(or hets) ever paired with that female let alone also carrying the anery gene since the premie was a snow but this was not my snake so i cant verify that. If the true definition of parthenogenic reproduction is were the animals are genetically identical to the mother then i guess the term is not the right one for this situation. Still probably something not yet understood going on

The way I understand Parthenogenic reproduction
is basically what Jeff stated.They are clones so
to speak, they use only the mothers genes and the
father genes are discarded.The reason they all turn out
female is because she's a fem. Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

Something along the same line as this, that could be in play here.

I heard recently that a couple different clutches in Ball Pythons produced pastel pinstripes from a normal female that was bred by a pastel male and a pinstripe male. I didn't believe it was possible (I believe it is called a molar pregnancy with 2 sperm in 1 egg, I had always heard it resulted in no offspring, or fetal death.) perhaps due to the lower on the evolutionary tree status of snakes, they have something within some mutations that allows for this sort of thing to happen. Of course that situation wouldn't account for a female motley producing supers, but perhaps 2 eggs fuzed resulting in a double chromosomal dose from the mother.
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Randall L Turner Jr.
Boas make the world go round.

Parthenogenesis would produce genetically diverse babies they would just all be female the results of the litter however would be just like breeding a Motley to a Motley as taken from wikipedia:
"Parthenogenesis is truly a reproductive process which creates a new individual or individuals from the naturally varied genetic material contained in the eggs of the mother. A litter of animals resulting from parthenogenesis may contain all genetically unique siblings without any twins or multiple numbers from the same genetic material."

As I understand it the only way the whole litter would be clones is if a female produced from parthenogenesis produced a litter via parthenogenesis. I still dont think this litter could be a product of parthenogenesis just because if it were there should be only normals and Super Motleys in the litter.

I have a litter that I think may have been produced from parthenogenesis luckily the mom was a super salmon and she was bred to a male with no salmon gene. So if all her offspring prove to be super salmon I will actually be able to prove that was the mode of reproduction.

My friend field collected a female water moccasin in Central Florida in 1993 and still has this animal.She is used today for his venom production and has never been with a male since he collectd her.She has given him 3 very small litters over the years. Now for the fun part, two of those babies produced are solid white with black eyes, looking nothing like the mother who is very normal and has the typical coloration of an adult moccasin. They are both males and he still has them and they are thriving just like any other animal in his collection. This animlal could have been bred by a wild male over ten years ago and this could be a product of sperm retention, who knows, but very unusual. The most recent litter was two years ago.If these were Partho births then the clone idea is thrown out the window, i disagree with the clone theory. I have some great pics if anyone would like to see them, thanks, George

That story is very possible it would mean that the female is het for that genetic mutuation, and she had no choice but to pass either a normal or mutuant gene pair on to the offspring. If the mode of sexual determination is ZW all offspring would have to be male. If she has produced males and females it cannot be a "partho" birth.

Yes I was describing hybridogenesis which is
a form of Parthenogenesis but incomplete.Parthenogenesis
can produce males like unfertalized eggs in ants produce
worker drone male ants.There are several different forms
of parthenogenesis.I described the wrong one earlier.Partho
will produce one or the other all male or all female.
Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

Partho in boas can produce males because females determine the sex of the offspring, not males like mammals.
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

The females determine the sex not the male? How did I miss that little "nugget" of info for all these years? Can you explain this? Thanks!
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Ty
Rat Race Solutions
www.ratracesolutions.com

Instead of the XX/XY (female/male) system that we have, snakes have ZW/ZZ (female/male) system. So boa females have ZW and males ZZ, the W chromosome being the one that determines sex.
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

I have read ALOT of stuff and never heard of this. Back to the books! LOL
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Ty
Rat Race Solutions
www.ratracesolutions.com

it that is the case then they would only be able to produce males.
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Thanks Vinnie Caruso
opinons are like a--holes... everybody has one and they all stink

Um, no.

Mammals, XY chromosome in males, males determine sex of offspring. Sperm is either X or Y.

Snakes, ZW chromosomes, egg is either Z or W.

Were you serious?
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

Males are "ZZ" females are "ZW" in "partho" females can only pass on a copy of genes meaning the offspring would either be male "ZZ" or lethal "WW" no females "ZW" could be produced. Double check your facts.

that is also the reason that if this was a partho reproduction there would be no motleys only Super Motleys and normals. Females can only pass a copy of genes on to the offspring not a combination meaning a hetero Motley could not be produced through partho.

Point being we don't know what causes Parthogenic reproduction or what makes it possible.

Cases in other species in labs that are not possible of being anything else have resulted in mostly females but some males have been produced as well.

I don't know how heterozygous animals would affect partho, but given their genotype and the way the sex chromosome is passed on it is only possible to consider.

Lastly, the ZW chromosome thing is fact, regardless if my link to Partho was correct or not. Please look it up if you don't believe me.
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

this was taken from a wikipedia article on parthenogenesis:

The offspring of parthenogenesis will be all female if two like chromosomes determine the female gender (such as the XY sex-determination system), but they will be male if two like chromosomes determine the male gender (such as the ZW sex-determination system), because the process involves the inheritance and subsequent duplication of only a single sex chromosome. The offspring may be capable of sexual reproduction, if this mode exists in the species. A parthenogenetic offspring is sometimes called a parthenogen.

Recently, the Komodo dragon, which normally reproduces sexually, was found also to be able to reproduce asexually by parthenogenesis. Because the genetics of sex determination in Komodo Dragons uses the WZ system (where WZ is female, ZZ is male, and WW is inviable) the offspring of this process will be ZZ (male) or WW (inviable), with no WZ females being born. A case has been documented of a Komodo Dragon switching back to sexual reproduction after a known parthenogenetic event. It has been postulated that this gives an advantage to colonization of islands, where a single female could theoretically have male offspring asexually, then switch to sexual reproduction with them to maintain higher level of genetic diversity than asexual reproduction alone can generate.

These are facts, in a parthenogenetic birth where sex is determined by these methods it is not possible to have males and females in the same litter.

In a partho birth with a het mutant mother half of the babies will be hetero for that mutuation and half will not carry the mutuant gene at all.

You are correct that we don't know what causes parthogenic reproduction or what makes it possible. If you have any other information contray to what I have posted please let me know as I am very intrested in this subject.

Exactly this is "Komodo Dragons" not live
birth Boas. refer to link below next post.
Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

From what I read there it agrees with me completely??? What am I missing?

Like I said before there are several types of
Parthenogenesis . The one you are describing here
(ZZ)all males is AP - Automatic Parthenogenesis.
I found a very easy nice explanation of this
for everyone. Lar M
http://home.pcisys.net/~dlblanc/articles/Parthenogenesis.php
Automatic Parthenogenesis

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Boas By Klevitz

n/p

Also meaning that an animal Expressing the heterozygous form of a mutation could produce normal animals(not het), heterozygous animals, and homozygous animals for that mutation? 25%,50%,25% respectively?

other types of partho birth associated with reptiles? The article describes parthon birth exactly as I did. I would be intersted to know more about the other types.

I must be mis reading this article as well as others
In the first paragraph it says:
>>"Parthenogenesis, reproduction without fertilization by a male, has been reported in only a few different groups of reptiles, most notably New World lizards of the genus Cnemidophorus (family Teiidae), Old World lizards of the genus Lacerta (family Lacertidae), and the Brahminy blind snake (Ramphotyphlops braminus; family Typhlopidae). In all of these cases, the populations are composed entirely, or almost entirely, of genetically identical female individuals, or clones"

It says"genetically identical female individuals, or clones"
So the "partho" they were familiar with in reptiles were all females.

other types of "Partho" are in article you read from Wiki: Gynogenesis & Hybridogenesis
Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

that is true in a population that reproduces soley by partho and inherit sex through xy determination. when a partho birth occurs by that mode all females will be born and when those females go on to reproduce by partho they will only have the abilty to produce females genetically identical to themselves if you continue to read further you will see it says:

Schuett found that the mother garter snake had up to twice as many bands as the offspring, not an anticipated result, but that those bands possessed by the offspring matched almost perfectly with those of the mother, indicating that all the DNA in the offspring came from the mother, but that not all the mother's DNA was present in the offspring. Thus, this was a true parthenogenesis, with no male contribution (which would have provided genetic material to the offspring that was different from that provided by the mother). But the missing DNA from the mother, coupled with the fact that all the offspring were males, lead Schuett to the conclusion that the reproduction observed was a form known as automictic parthenogenesis (AP). AP had been previously described in domestic turkeys and chickens, and the offspring produced are all diploid males. (Diploid is the normal condition for sexual reproduction, indicating that all chromosomes occur in pairs.)

So why are all the viable offspring males? In most mammals, sex is determined by the X and Y chromosomes, two of which constitute a pair. A pair of X chromosomes and the individual is female; one X and one Y and the individual is male. (As the mother has only X chromosomes -- generally, a YY combination isn't possible, and wouldn't be viable if it were.) In those diapsids (including birds, lizards, and snakes) where AP has been described, females have dissimilar sex chromosomes (ZW), while males have two copies of the same chromosome (ZZ). In AP, if the egg and the second polar body each contain a Z chromosome, when they are combined, a male offspring will be produced. If they both contain a W chromosome (a 50% chance), the egg will be non-viable (WW). This is what causes the high proportion of infertile eggs in AP parthenogenesis.

When you read the whole article it agrees with me 100%

Yes everybody is right.
In one form or another.
XX & XY does not occur in reptiles only mammals
Therefore this statement is incorrect:
>>"that is true in a population that reproduces soley by partho and inherit sex through xy determination. when a partho birth occurs by that mode all females will be born and when those females go on to reproduce by partho they will only have the abilty to produce females genetically identical to themselves if you continue to read further you will see it says:"

Just refer back to that first paragraph.
The researchers are speaking of Reptiles certain lizards & snakes ZW & ZZ.In this case ZW all females.
Only the XY part of that statement you made is wrong.They are talking about Reptiles(ZW) not Mammals (XY)
Gordon W. Schuett,recognized the fem garter snake producing litter for 10 years without males.This is what leads him to Automictic parthenogenesis(LOL,I spelled that wrong twice in my other post)as means where by she's accomplishing this.
So some form of "Partho" cannot be ruled out in the Motley litter I guess.Unless there is a variation in sex in the litter.
Some males some fems.So everybody understands "Partho" a
little better now. I'm also done talking about it,Thanks for
the discussion.Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I assume you were being sarcastic about retained sperm for 10 years. But I just wanted to state that if it goes to 2 years, any sperm would have died.

I'm fairly certain retained sperm litters have to occur within less than a year. Usually they are the result of a male breeding a female that doesn't ovulate during the courtship. She then ovulates a month or whatever amount of time after he is pulled (assuming captivity here).
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

No not being sarcastic at all, just stating all the facts in this case. I am sure she had been exposed to a male before she was collected so the possiblity might exist, however her first litter was 7 years later. Those are the facts with this particular animal, we can all make our own decisions, but really hard to know 100%. My friend suspects Partho considering all the info he has on her and knowing her history, now he is attempting to prove out these white animals.

Hemaphrodites can not reproduce with themselves. They function as one sex, one or the other on a reproductive basis, or are sterile.
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

First off, my condolences to Marc for his slug/premie motley litter. I had a premie last year and it really bummed me out. At least he momma is healthy.

Next, I think geckomill is talking about my 2006 litter from a HET Anery male x Anery female POSS Het Snow. From this litter, I got 12 Anery (even sex ratio) and 6 normals (forgot the ratio) and 1 premie SNOW that passed away a few days after birth .

Here's the pic of the snow, which was a Female, at day 3:

She was obviously a snow, as seen in the pic. And I checked with the breeder of the male het anery, and the breeder confirmed there was absolutely NO albino genes in him. The female was sold to me as an Anery poss. Het Snow. From this result, I would assume she is a het snow, and am waiting for her to drop a litter in July to confirm this.

But the little snow female popping out was a complete surprise. This was this female's very first litter and she had no contact with any other males besides the het anery. So I still don't know what happened. Just a very interesting occurrence.

Just thought I'd chime in to give my experience.

Jay

Just because the person who produced the male het anery does not know of any albino genes in his lineage does not mean they are not there. he simple fact that there are albino's means the albino gene is floating around in the wild population and could pop up anywhere. Also, some folks in a pos het to non het breeding won't even mention the remote possibility of being het.

Your odds of one albino (in this case also anery) in a litter of 19 was it? is low but not way out, out of 20 there would statistically be 5.

Only sure way to prove anything is through breeding trials, you may just find your het anery male is a DH snow. Of course the actual outcome could raise more questions than it answers...
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

That's very good point, Dave. I just figured the chances of having the albino gene floating around in the male were unlikely, considering the assurances I received from the breeder of the male het anery (who I believe was part of a ghost litter). Still, who knows, weirder things have happened.

As far as breeding trials to prove this male may be a DH snow, that will have to wait, as I was more curious in proving out the female anery as a het snow. So this year, I paired her with my DH sunglow male that produced my sunglows and poss super sunglows last year. I might have a "spare" het albino female next year I can pair up with the male het anery to see what's going on in that boy. Time will tell.

Thanks for your insight.

Jay

My condolences on the bad litter.

The appearance of what look to be supers is definitely interesting. I wish you better luck with the pair in the future.
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Randall L Turner Jr.
Boas make the world go round.

Had a very similar situation earlier this week - definitley blows chunks!!!!!

But same with me, mom is OK and that's all you have to cheer you up, at least there can be a next time with her!!!!!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Thanks Dave,

Mom is doing fine, she has just fed .... with great enthusiasm!

Looking forward to next time. I wonder who I should pair her with?!

Marc
www.selectivebred.com

>>Looking forward to next time. I wonder who I should pair her with?!

LOL - DUH!!!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Really really interesting!

Now as Ricky used to always say, "splain that one to me Lucy"...
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Did you ever or did anyone ever have a male Motley in with that girl? Seems like one logical explanation could be the presence of Male Motley Sperm even from a previous breeding.

I had a female Colombian produce babies two years in a row even though, after the first litter, she NEVER had a male in with her. Sperm retention from at least that previous years breeding. Go figure.

A BEAUTIFUL Motley by the way!
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I have had her since she was about 1yr old. Neither I nor the previous owner ever had a male Motley with her. The male T positive is the only Boa that has ever been in contact with her!

Weird eh?!

Marc
www.selectivebred.com

Didn't this happen to somebody else before too?
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that the patterns had just not developed yet. I've seen stillborn premies that look anery (that shouldn't) and that have very reduced patterns and some with almost no pattern (although there is usually some near the tail). Could be the those two were from the second(later) ovulation and just hadn't delvoped enough yet.
Of course, I could be completely wrong!
I would try that breeding again when you feel mom has recovered enough and cross your fingers. Sorry to hear about the bad litter, that's the pits.
-April
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

The same thought crossed my mind to start with, but all the other 4 premmies had fully developed patterns & two of them (not shown in the photos) were MUCH smaller than the two 'Supers'.

The two patternless Boas also have other 'Super' characteristics such as black eyes.

It only really appeared to be the colour that hadn't fully developed.

Marc
www.selectivebred.com

Sorry for the litter but glad Mom is ok!

From the looks of those...it looks clear to me they are supers...but didn't this same thing happen to Jeremy Stone? I could be wrong but it was a T pos het breeding right? Maybe that is where the purple patternless comes into play?

Jeremy if you are reading this please clarify.

Thanks Andy
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Marc:

I'm sorry that you have experienced such a great loss.

On the brite side it sounds like you have accidentally stumbled onto something very exciting.

Remember the snake breeders motto.

There's always next year.

My condolences

Brian
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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

before talking about pathenogenes, get the sexe of the 2 babies. If one of them is a male we can forget parthenogenese if both are females it will prove nothing but we that will still be a possibility.
Concerning parthenogese cases, (haven"t heard about proved cases with boa constrictor )from what I know it usualy concern whole litters so check all the other babies sexe to see if they are all females. Anyway, other breeding trials should give us an answer.

Sorry to hear about your litter. I believe that Jeremy's purple patternless Motleys were produced from a motley bred with a normal. Maybe these are the same; they look like they could have been.

Bill Kirby

n/p
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uncommonboa.com

My condolences; I am sorry about this litter. I'm not going to get to deep into a genetics talk about this breeding because it would only be based on speculation.

Here are a couple of thoughts. There have been a few breedings where T-positive albinos popped out of motley litters where the breedings were Motley X T-positive. This is the first time that I have seen super motley's pop out of a litter of this type.

I'm not sure on the total history of the t-positive Argentines which produced the Argentine motley, but I think that the same type of thing occured, correct me if I am wrong.

I'm going to have to say the two are related somehow. Perhaps they work like the paradigms where, as hard is it may be to believe, share the same locus. Maybe this allows to produces T-positives or super motleys in F-1 animals from Motley X T-positive breedings. Another possibility would be that these two genes are epistatic to one another, creating an intermediate phenotype as the result of the P-generation breeding. Very confusing, but I am not going to speculate further than this.

Again, Sorry for the litter, but it may lead to an insightful process of how motley genes and t-positive genes work together.

Trey Schneller

Looking at the size difference between the "supers" and the rest of the litter, does anyone think these "supers" could be underdeveloped motleys? They are 1/3 smaller than the rest, the eye buldge lke many premies, etc. It could be a possibility.
Then again, have we not seen motley's thrown out in T ive argentine litters?

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology
3309 Gardner Hall
Raleigh, NC 27695-7613

There were 6 premmies in total. Although the pictures only show 4, there were another 2 (1 motley & 1 normal) that were MUCH smaller than the 'Supers' but had fully developed patterns.

I do not therefore feel that these 'Supers' are Motleys that had not fully formed their patterns.

Marc
www.selectivebred.com

Parthogenisis is possible.

Because the female is Heterozygous Motley, then she has 3 possible options in her offspring should they be produced through parthenogenisis. She can either give them a normal gene pair and look normal, one motley and one normal gene to be motley, or a motley gene pair to be super motleys.

The only cases that have been able to be proven as parthenogenisis were with homozygous morph females, so the only option was for homozygous offspring.

Incidently I believe one case was a Motley X VPI T-pos that Jeremy did, the female was the VPI T-pos and produced some female T-pos babies.

The likely hood that T-pos and Motley morphs are linked, at least with some Colombian T-pos is unlikely. I say this because of the number of Motley X VPI T-pos litters that have resulted in the expected Normal and Motley hets.

I do not know if paternity tests can be done on stillborns. But if they can, Warren has the capability, would answer a lot of questions.
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

another possibility is they did not yet develop pattern. But IF this were the case, they have a surprising amount of color. Pattern develops late, followed by color last.

Baby pythons that died early in the egg look Leucistic, no color, no pattern.

I don't know that this would be possible to see in boas given how the babies develop and are born, but I could be wrong.
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

Keep in mind that Boas can produce litters fathered by multiple males. I know that's not the case here, but it does validate the possibility that at least some of a litter can be parthenogenic while other babies are not.

If a paternity test can be done on stillborns, PLEASE talk to Warren and get it done for the T-pos male and the two patternless stills. Could also do a DNA comparison with the Dam to see if they only contain her genes.
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

The bottom line here, in my little mind, is this; Genetics is a very complex concept. There are certain rules that you can count on, most of the time. But, genes are not aware of these rules and we do not understand everything that happens. Many want everything to fit into a cookie cutter sample every time and that just is not always the case. Still it's great fun to speculate and ponder on the possibilities.

The more I learn, truly, the less I know.
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that they are most certainly supers and not just underdeveloped motleys since they are pictured beside a motley of the same size and length with a fully developed pattern and color.

That is all.

LOL. They are smaller! I think they are Supers too, but they are a bit smaller.
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

Yeah they are a bit smaller but "roughly" the same size. I think they are close enough in size to have developed some pattern; that was my point at least. We share the same opinion nonetheless.

good came from it? Hopefully you can repeat the breeding this next season and get live babies with the same results! Hope all is well with you ovewr there. By the way,all the animals I got from you are doing great and the male is actually courting a female Het Sharp for me right now. I don't expect much or anything really this year sense I started sooo late but I figure i'd atleast give them some experience for the upcoming season. Looks like I might have to put him with a Motley female this year and see if I get the same results? Anyways,goodluck with the rest of your liters this year and shoot me an e-mail when you get a chance so we can catch up! Oh, and tell Peter I say what up!

Hi Marc

im really sorry to here about this and although very sad it is also very very intresting result , with any luck you will be more sucesfull next year with the same pair and hopefully the results will be similar to what you have this year
Looking at them they sure do look like supers , any premies ive had in the past no matter how small ,they are have always had their pattern , quite often they have lacked much pigmentation but the pattern has always been there , what ever has gone on its worth trying again next year to see what happens

Kev