Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You
https://www.crepnw.com/

Enigma Issues

psgeckos Apr 24, 2008 06:22 AM

We have just had 2 Bell Enigma hatchings and thought we would share with you a video of one of the babies, they both are inflicted with the dreded Enigma problems.
We want to be as open as we can about this in order to learn more about this and will hopefully be able to submit these for studies along with another breeder, Nick & Carrie(Ark Reptiles) female.
We are very upset, as we don't know if the little ones are suffering and have prepared ourselfs for the next 5 Bell Enigma clutches to also be inflicted.
We have some other Enigma eggs with have been outcrossed to other morphs, these eggs look fertile and are currently cooking.

Baby 001 - This lil one appeared very clam when hatched and has appeard to get worse, it has shed today, so we will see if it feeds ok
Baby002 - This lil one appeared a lot more hyper and worse than baby001, but this lil one has appeared to have adapted better and is not circling as much.

We have also added some infomation from our findings, scanning through the internet as we have been toying with the idea of it being a balance issue - Some information which we came across is very interesting and could possible be a plausable reason to this problem.

From: http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/full/150/2/815
And
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otolith
Common signs of vestibular syndrome include falling, head tilt (rotation of the head with one ear held lower than the other), flickering of the eyeball from side-to-side or up and down (nystagmus), general wobbliness (often with the animal drifting to one side as he moves around) and/or circling. The balance centre is very close to the area of the brain that controls vomiting and so animals with disturbances to the vestibular system may feel nauseous or be sick.
Head tilt (het) is a recessive mutation in mice causing vestibular dysfunction. Homozygotes display abnormal responses to position change and linear acceleration and cannot swim. However, they are not deaf. het was mapped to the proximal region of mouse chromosome 17, near the T locus. Here we report anatomical characterization of het mutants and high resolution mapping using a set of chromosome deletions. The defect in het mutants is limited to the utricle and saccule of the inner ear, which completely lack otoliths. The unique specificity of the het mutation provides an opportunity to better understand the development of the vestibular system. Complementation analyses with a collection of embryonic stem (ES)- and germ cell-induced deletions localized het to an interval near the centromere of chromosome 17 that was indivisible by recombination mapping. This approach demonstrates the utility of chromosome deletions as reagents for mapping and characterizing mutations, particularly in situations where recombinational mapping is inadequate.

An otolith, (oto-, ear + lithos, a stone), also called statoconium[1] or otoconium is a structure in the saccule or utricle of the inner ear, specifically in the vestibular labyrinth. The saccule and utricle, in turn, together make the otolith organs. They are sensitive to gravity and linear acceleration. Because of their orientation in the head, the utricle is sensitive to a change in horizontal movement, and the saccule gives information about vertical acceleration (such as when in an elevator).
Otoliths are small particles, composed of a combination of a gelatinous matrix and calcium carbonate in the viscous fluid of the saccule and utricle. The inertia of these small particles causes them to stimulate hair cells when the head moves. The hair cells send signals down sensory nerve fibres, which are interpreted by the brain as motion.
When the head is in a normal upright position, the otolith presses on the sensory hair cell receptors. This pushes the hair cell processes down and prevents them from moving side to side. However, when the head is tilted, the pull of gravity on statoconia shift the hair cell processes to the side, distorting them and sending a message to the central nervous system that the head is no longer level but now tilted.

There is also it could be a form of Ocular Albinism, as some other Enigmas and our babies (not all affected Enigmas) appear to display increased symptoms when subjected to bright light conditions.

It would be interesting for feedback

Thank you

Replies (6)

Mary_Beth88 Apr 24, 2008 03:09 PM

Your video did not show on the thread, but i did a search on YouTube and found it. It is really strange how it tilts its head.I don't think the behavior of running around like that is all too strange though (IMO). If you find out anything more, I would be very interested to know what it is and why it is happening. I'm sorry you are having this problem though and best of luck to you.

geckomill Apr 24, 2008 04:21 PM

I appreciate that you shared your experiences with us as it is understandably hard for someone with so much money and hard work invested to be so forward. Thank You. I havn't learned much more about the enigma gene than what you have explained already but i understand that it is a dominant mutation rather than recessive like the similar gene affecting behavior in mice. Have you noticed weather or not the normal siblings to enigmas have any abnormal neurological symptoms? Has the enigma gene been around long enough to prove that the neurological disorder is infact part of the same gene? I have heard that some enigmas run laps while some dont. Perhaps when the mutation popped up there was another dominant gene the animal had that caused the neuro problem explaining why half of enigmas wobble and half of their babies wobble. Maybe that is a pipe dream and i am stupid. I dont think a fatal or unhealthy gene should be intentionally bred but i do think it is worth exhausting all possibilities before the project is dumped. thanks again for your findings, i will appreciate an update of what you learn. Kyle

psgeckos Apr 25, 2008 02:35 AM

Thanks for your reply guys.
These are the only two we've hatched so far, so unable to compare at the moment, we have Enigma x Bell Albino eggs due to hatch so we'll see!

Sorry about the Vids, new to this site!!
I've uploaded them on the video section, Enigma Issues and Enigma Issues Pt 2 if you wanna do a search

paulnj Apr 26, 2008 06:25 AM

I have hatched 2 that walked in circles straight from the egg and by 7-8 grams they acted normal in everyway I can see.I am holding them back.

That is a very small percent of the enigmas I have hatched BTW.
-----
MY SITE

psgeckos Apr 26, 2008 02:24 PM

Hi Paul

Thanks for that, may i ask what the parentage was?

Thanks

paulnj Apr 26, 2008 02:59 PM

my main breeder enigma is a giant enigma het tremper and he acts freaky when you add a female to his tub, but is otherwise fine. I have hatched 6 clutches from a bell crossed to him as a test breed and one of the enigma hatchlings circled when stressed for the first 2-3 weeks at most. I will hold her back, even though she is fine in every way.

The second came from a tangerine het tremper cross and did a few cirles when stressed for 10-12 days. The funny thing is, I hatched a bell from mack het bell X bell that circled for the first month when stressed. That bell came from pre enigma bell lines from different parentage. So I think that we may be looking for faults we otherwise overlook in SOME cases.
-----
MY SITE

Site Tools