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Thawing and scenting

mfoux Apr 24, 2008 08:39 AM

I did a little experiment last night inspired by one of the posts below.

I have a female Honduran that doesn't seem to share the voracious appetite of my other Hondos. Sometimes she refuses food and she has gotten in the habit of only accepting one pinky rat at a time, even though she's big enough to down several. She's over 30 " long, but is very slender.
So last night I decided to do a taste test. My normal method of thawing is in hot water, and I just dump all the mice and rats of all sizes in together. Last night I thawed one rat on a paper towel, no water, and then warmed it over a light as Doug suggested. Smelling the rat, I detected the strong scent typical of any rodent breeding operation. I offered it to my picky girl. She sniffed it, checked it out, acted like she was interested, then slithered away. I took the same rat, washed it with bar soap under hot water, dried it. Sniffed. Smelled like...nothing. Brought it back to her and she took it right away.

This is the same method I used for my grey-banded king and one of my California kings to get them to take f/t. I've never used it on a Honduran before.
Today, I'll go a step further and see if I can get her to take multiple food items if I de-scent them first.

Any thoughts?
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
1.0.0 Thayeri MSP
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

Replies (29)

Joe Forks Apr 24, 2008 09:09 AM

>>Any thoughts?

Is she taking these food items from tongs? otherwise, just throw them on or in the hide box and check on her later (don't forget

just a thought
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

mfoux Apr 24, 2008 10:44 AM

She used to take them from tongs or just thrown in, and she used to down up to four at a time. Now she only takes them from the tongs, and she'll only take one per day.
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
1.0.0 Thayeri MSP
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

FR Apr 24, 2008 09:45 AM

Yea as always, I have some thoughts on this. As a pioneer of kingsnake husbandry, I recomend keeping your snakes in better conditions. Then you would not have to worry about picky feeders.

By design, snakes are not picky. Can you imagine how long a picky feeder would live in nature????? Naturally they consume and do so quickly(no questions asked) their prey in nature. To a point of silliness. I once found a diamondback(large snake) crawling around eating dove feathers, from a dove that was shot and skinned during dove season the year before. I once found a rock rattlesnake attempting to peel off the road and consume a smashed into wax paper, collarded lizards(sail lizard) etc.

The point here is, how a snake performs is based on its enviornmental choices. The hunger levels and aggression levels. As well as immune system are all based on the INDIVIDUALS ability to seek proper temps(and humidity, shelter).

With todays current husbandry, its based on the average, most use an average temps(and other conditions) with very little range to pick from. This promotes average results from the average snake.

What we are learning from our field work is, there is a huge amount of individual variation. So what your seeing is, not prey choice problems, but your not supporting that individual in the way it REQUIRES to be supported. A picky snake is evidence that its requirements are not being supported.

In nature, these snakes constantly seek and utilize a WIDE range of temps. They spend every minute seeking different temps to do different tasks. Natures wide range, from too hot, to too cold, covers a wide range of INDIVIDUAL perferences.

Which is not like our average husbandry, which is designed for the average person(keeper) with the average individual snake.

So what the above "bla bla bla" is all about is, instead of mucking with "tricking" that snake, try addressing the needs of that "individual" snake. Remember, they cannot be that picky in nature, or they would be DEAD.

Also improper conditions effects the immune system and allows all manner of nastys to take over an individual. This too happens in nature. In your case, it sounds like flagellated prodazoens(sp) Both cures are the same, allowing a "normal wide temp range". Cheers

DMong Apr 24, 2008 10:31 AM

"The great and powerful Oz has spoken!.."
Image
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

ChristopherD Apr 24, 2008 10:37 AM

Ha HaHaHaHaHa,,Ahh.HaHaHahahahahahaha ROTFLMAO,,,Too funny,hahahahahahaha..LOL

greenbay1 Apr 24, 2008 01:06 PM

That is about as funny as it gets. I'm still laughing.
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0.1 Mexican Black King
1.0 Brooksi King
1.0 Japanese Bobtail
1.0 Maine Coon

mfoux Apr 24, 2008 11:24 AM

Dude, you make it sound like I'm a novice who keeps my snakes in filthy cages with messed up temps and humidity. I understand all you've said here, and agree, but I'd like to further explain a few things:
This snake DOES feed regularly, just not as much as my other Hondurans. She eats two-three times per week, but she only eats one item in any given day. I was merely pointing out an obvious preference to rats that have been thawed in water or descented rather than thawed dry. It was just a little experiment that I thought I'd share the results of.
She has shown no signs of illness ever.
Like all of my snakes, her space is cleaned about twice a week or more as needed.
She has access to the same temps and humidity as all my Hondurans.
Her temperament is the same as the others.
I don't believe she is stressed.
I've had her since January 20, 2007, in which time she has consumed 89 food items in 67 feedings. At only 179 grams and 33 inches long, I believe she is on the thin side compared to my other Hondurans, who are around 250 grams at the same length. But she is not a skinny snake; her body is full and firm and she is glossy and active, exhibiting typical Honduran milk snake behavior.
I understand and appreciate you sharing information and opinions, but alot of guys on this forum seem to have some really big egos. It seemed like you attacked my husbandry practices without finding out anything about how I keep my snakes. Hypothetically speaking, and with no sarcasm intended on my part, how would you choose to house, feed and care for this particular Honduran female if you were me?
I am honestly interested to hear your thoughts on this, but I need you to elaborate on your statement, "As a pioneer of kingsnake husbandry, I recomend keeping your snakes in better conditions. Then you would not have to worry about picky feeders." I feel like I do a very good job keeping my snakes and continue to educate myself even though I've been keeping for 28 years.
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
1.0.0 Thayeri MSP
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

markg Apr 24, 2008 03:19 PM

I think FR's message is a general message to all, not implying you have dirty cages or something like that. And he is correct when you think about it. We generally keep snakes in average conditions and treat them alike. When we do that to people, it is called socialism, and it works but does not allow any individuals to truly shine or allow individuals to reach their full potential.

Back to your experiment.. is the snake more eager with live food?
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Mark

mfoux Apr 25, 2008 11:57 AM

Mark,
I haven't used any live food yet for this experiment; that will come a little later. I did find that she likes de-scented pinkies and pinkies that have been thawed in water, but not ones that have been thawed in open air. My theory is that it is the scent, which is noticeable to my human nose, and therefore might be overpowering to my snake's sense of smell.
If my experiments lead to anything interesting, I'll share the results in a future post.

Thanks.
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
1.0.0 Thayeri MSP
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

FR Apr 24, 2008 04:31 PM

You gave a discription, which included a picky individual. There was no mention of dirty cages, or your being any grade or level of keeper.

I simply went by your discription. I did not add more(you did)

The discription you gave, is a symtom of marginal conditions. The rest of your post was YOUR ego, not mine, I do have dirty cages and such, but my snakes are not picky, if they become picky, I change the conditions until they are not picky. Sir, that is common sense and hopefully it does not take a huge ego to use common sense.

I have to wonder, what did you expect, someone to pat you on the back and tell you its the snakes fault its picky? Sir, I don't buy that. I happen to think its the keepers fault when something is not right. Healthy snakes ARE NOT PICKY. Cheers

FR Apr 25, 2008 09:33 AM

You asked me to explain being a kingsnake pioneer. Just ask around. I started breeding kings in 1964 and have many world first breedings and started many of the morphs here today. I also started many of the methods that are here today. Some I am not so proud of. Like the shoebox approach, it works, but surely its not very good. For instance, look at a shoe box, or any cage for that matter, then look how a snake really lives, hmmmmmmmmmmmm a cage is like locking the snake in a hole or small cave. That simply cannot compare to the choices they have in nature. On the otherhand, we can support the snakes so they do not experience the harshness of nature.

The point most here miss is, reptiles are not mammals, I know that sounds very basic, but its so very true, just look at the husdanbry here. In nature, snakes utilize temps that vary from 45F to 100F, on a by need basis. The hotter temps are used for four basic reasons,
1. to digest prey, the larger the bolus the higher the temp(all they need is a short exposure to high temps)
2. Shedding, this requires replacing all their skin, in nature snakes seek heat for this.
3. Reproduction, there are key times during reproduction that snakes Need higher then normal heat. Not during the whole process, just during key times.
4. to stimulate and strenghten the immune system.
A. to heal injuries and fight off disease
B. to prevent disease and control parasites.

Of course I am sure there are many more reasons, but these are the four MOST OBVIOUS. The evolutionary advantage of reptiles is to vary and control their metabolism. Why would you take away their advantage?

At other times, snakes seek different temps to accomplish different tasks. If there is nothing that requires heat(higher metabolism), they avoid heat and seek to conserve.

On the other end of the spectrum, if the support for progress is not available, food and water, snakes seek cool temps to conserve energy and prevent dehydration. In reality, dehydration is the first most important stimulus to conserve. Of course these are tied together, as in most populations, water is obtained from their prey.

What is missing here is, folks think of snakes as mammals, that is, they use a set temp like 83.218F in the summer, and 55F to hibernate in the winter. You know, we are mammals and we must use 98.6F(aprox) or we get very sick. Which could not be farther from the truth
(what snakes/reptiles actually do). Snakes REQUIRE a wide range of temps, thats what makes them SNAKES.

Again here, people are followers, that is, they follow the advice of others, not the results from the captives. Or so it appears. Of course, these keepers have choices, its odd they don't take them.

As I mentioned, I also do lots and lots of field work(for a very long time). As such, I/we have learned that snakes spend their entire lifes picking temps that fit their temporary needs. Which is not what most keepers are giving them.

The average temp method was developed by me and others because we started to mass produce large numbers of snakes and wanted something "handy" and could be done by others without experience. The truth is, it was developed to aid in the marketing of kingsnakes.

Sir, that was decades ago, Now you would think that folks would have learned what reptiles are. Specially because the keeping of large colonies is very limited to pet shop suppliers. As there is very little market(compared to the old days). So you would think folks would start to keep them in ways that actually benefited and fit the snakes actual needs. Not in the simplist common braindead method. I know, most like to break it down to A,B,C, but there are still 24 other letters that could be used.

Again, I do not know you from Adam, nor do I know how you keep your snakes, and in fact, I could careless, how you keep them. That is between you and your snakes. The point is, snakes are a species and they are individuals. Not all individuals react the same way to captive restricted conditions. Its your task as a caring keeper(you appear to be) to figure out what the "individual" requires. Not just the species average. You see, YOU ARE KEEPING INDIVIDUAL SNAKES, not a species representative.

Now to address your ego, of course it bothers you, if something is said that will allow you to think its your fault. It should bother you. Where your in error is, you should take your aggression out of YOU, your the one failing to understand the above. Not me, I am only offering words for your consideration. You can use these words to help your "helpless" snake or you can worry about your fragile ego. That sir is your choice and how you do that will reflect on you.

As for my ego. If a captive snake fails, its my fault, period. I am the warden, I am the arse thats keeping these wonderful animals in boxes, it HAS TO BE MY FAULT. This one fact is what allowed me to become a pioneer, I took the blame for failure. This allowed me to successfully keep and become the world first breeder of many many many species of many types of reptiles. Yes, I always blame myself for failing(is that ego????) Oh yea, on the way to success there is ALWAYS lots of failure. Dumb people simply think I am lucky, hahahahahahaha

So when I read your post, I assumed, I hope correctly, that you actually cared about your animals. But much to my surprise, it seems like all your actually cared about was your ego and how others precieved you, To bad. Cheers

mfoux Apr 25, 2008 11:46 AM

Sorry dude, you've got me all wrong. I do care about what people think of me, but I care more about my animals. I also respect the work you and other pioneers have done in the past and the work you are all doing now.
I'm going to abandon this thread now because I don't see any point in turning this into one colossal cluster like that thread a few months ago about whether or not king snakes are actually cannibalistic and whether we are all starving our snakes.
If you feel the need to have the last word, go ahead. I will read whatever you post and will withhold any response.
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
1.0.0 Thayeri MSP
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

FR Apr 25, 2008 06:05 PM

Well thats very sad, its not about last words or any such. If you and I have a difference of opinion, then a long discussion could help. I know thats not likely, but it could help.

I stated what reptiles do, you know reptiles using a wide range of temps. Its my opinion that is the reason for your individual being less robust then the others. I also explained that snakes without question have INDIVIDUAL preferences.

Yet, you do not state what conditions your snake is in, So I could be wrong by assuming you are using a narrow range of temps, am I wrong?

You see, that would be the next step in this discussion. If you are using a narrow range of conditions, I would suggest testing a wider range and see what happens. Instead, you did not discuss anything about your animal, you simply felt threatened and defended yourself. Go read your post and see for yourself.

Of course you do not have to try anything. Or even read what I have to say. You see, this conversation is public and many others may benefit from this. No matter what stance you or I have. You know, to broaden the scope of what is possible.

The reality is, its not about whos right or whos wrong, After all, keeping reptiles does produce results and if your happy with your results, then you do not need to change anything.

Because you actually brought up the subject, that may indeed mean your not so happy with the progress of that individual snake. Then to discuss possible cures would be of benefit to you. Remember that part, to you. What I say here is of no benefit to me. Remember in a discussion, I offer you something to think about, then you offer me something in return. Unfortunately what you offered was not about your methods or your snake.

Yes, most do want to make it a war, that way they do not have to actually work on their animals. Or feel like they did something, wrong or not so good. Yes, unfortunately that is commonplace.

So after all that, a normal conversation would be nice. But then you would have to participate and not make it a war. To participate would be devulging what the actual conditons are and then discussing them. Again, not right or wrong, but instead a possibility of actually learning more. And yes, I may learn something too. Or didn't you think of that?

Remember, the last word will indeed come from the snake, you know, whether if progresses or not. Cheers

mfoux Apr 25, 2008 11:53 PM

Okay, I said I wouldn't respond, but your last post has encouraged me to push on and try to continue our conversation. I DO respect your thoughts and although it may not seem like it, I actually share your opinion about a wider range of temperatures. Before we started this discussion, I was trying a few different things related to temperature. I've had a pretty long week and need to unwind, so I'm going to wait a couple of days before I post anything detailed about temp ranges and things. I'll put more info in a new post and invite your feedback. I'm all about learning new things and experimenting, and I only want what's best for my snakes.

Here's the girl in question (this pic is a little older):

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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
1.0.0 Thayeri MSP
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

Jeff Hardwick Apr 24, 2008 10:42 AM

I've had a few milks that were careful to avoid rat pinks and pups but were eager feeders on any mouse. I'd assumed the snakes were avoiding the rats because of an ingrained fear of the larger and more dangerous prey. This ties in to the snakes that are content with skinks or scelops but delay taking mouse pinks for a year or two until they have more size and confidence and can better defend themselves if attacked by momma mouse. Rubbing skink goo on the pink signals them that this item smells odd but might be OK.

Here's another oddity: why does a three foot milk feed only on large pinks and refuse anything furry no matter how small the fuzzy? The 3 siblings are woofing adult mice and one prefers a small pile of pinks.

Good luck! Jeff
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It doesn't matter who votes. What matters is who counts the votes............Josef Stalin

mfoux Apr 24, 2008 11:17 AM

I've noticed the same thing. I have five Hondurans right now, all about 30-34 inches, and some feed on anything (mostly piles of pink rats), but one only eats pink rats and one refuses pink rats and only eats mice. Interesting, huh?
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
1.0.0 Thayeri MSP
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

jR56 Apr 24, 2008 01:12 PM

I had a Arizona Mountain King once that would eat 5 pinkies at a sitting, but would refuse anything larger.
I too am curious what FR would do different with this Honduran. It was kind of odd for him to knock the husbandry practices when he had no idea how the snake was being kept.
Jeff

DMong Apr 24, 2008 03:03 PM

Just a few minutes ago, I fed a small '07 Honduran I purchased from a friend of mine on 3/15 of last month. He was feeding it only live, and was never offered F/T ever since he hatched. He has fed five times so far since I've had him, although with some hesitation and reluctance since he's very nervous(as are many young milks), even with an optimum environment. Well, I offered him a nice slightly warmed chubby F/T fuzzy as usual, placed directly at the opening of his small hide box. I wiggled it a little holding it with a long , thin pair of tweezer/tongs so he doesn't notice me at all so he won't "spook". I wiggled it,...........nothing, I left it for a couple minutes so he could smell it over and begin feeding, again,...............nothing, so when he pulled his head inside the hide, I quickly pulled the offering away and damaged it's face with the tongs to tear the fur, and expose some head tissue/material(basically "brained" and put it in front of him again at the hide, he stuck his snout out and before I could even blink!, one tongue flick and he ZAPPED it like it was his last meal on earth. He (and many others)seem to get a feeding response from slightly different scent cues than others normally would that trigger instant, violent feeding responses. I'm not saying this like it's some big secret either, as many folks know about, and have tried this with great success, I'm saying this because certain snakes get stimulated by different "scent cues" that register in their brain to feed.

So the moral to my little story here is that MANY times it's strictly about scent stimuli, and what triggers certain snakes to respond the way they do, and NOT always about bad husbandry issue, no matter WHAT anyone says.

I guess maybe after over four decades of owning many many hundreds of snakes, I too have absolutely HORRIBLE husbandry practices!..LOL!

best regards, ~Doug

Image
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Hollychan Apr 24, 2008 05:53 PM

You torment me with that snake, Doug. ^_^ I still think that one is absolutely gorgeous! I can't wait to see if that pattern will pass down to the next baby. ^_^

Beautiful, as always.
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Holly

0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Lizzie Borden) (missing )
1.0 Florida Kingsnake (Eddie Gein)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Black Cat (Shadowfax)
1.0 Egyptian Arabian (Bagan) (Deceased )
1.0 Tennessee Walking Horse (Durango)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

DMong Apr 24, 2008 07:49 PM

Sorry for the torture session..LOL!,.....I have a female sibling of his that has the same type of whacked-out pattern, she is stunning as well...........we shall see what prevails!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

mfoux Apr 24, 2008 07:26 PM

Thanks for posting that, Doug. That's the point I was making in my original post! Different scents, different reactions.

Awesome snake, by the way! I love aberrant patterns.
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
1.0.0 Thayeri MSP
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

DMong Apr 24, 2008 08:24 PM

Yes, I knew exactly what all this was about, and that's exactly why I posted what I did,......just as you mentioned, different chemical/scent stimuli,.....different snakes, different responses, no two animals are the same,......maybe very SIMILAR at times, but NOT the same!

Another possible theory as to why some snakes are so turned-on over live vs dead(besides the obvious movement), is that they may very well be attracted to the scent of the breath itself that is expelled from the rodent's lungs. This no doubt has all sorts of "internal" smells that very likely cause the snake's feeding response to shoot through the roof!. Also, there are chemical scents excreted from the skin of live rodents(and MOST other animals for that matter), and that scent would cease as soon as the animal is no longer alive. These are just a few interesting things that certainly MUST have some merrit with a good percentage of snakes.

BTW, thanks for the nice compliment on the aberrant Hondo, I also have a "whacked out" female sibling of his that is also a real "looker"!, she's twice as small as the rest of my '07 Hondo's, but she's bouncing back rather nicely so far. Here's a pic of her too.

~Doug
Image
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

mfoux Apr 25, 2008 11:36 AM

Thanks Doug,
I'm going to keep experimenting, because that's what I do in all my hobbies.

And as always, awesome snake!
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
1.0.0 Thayeri MSP
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

elaphopeltishow Apr 25, 2008 09:49 PM

I agree Doug, well said. Every snake is an individual even within its own species or even clutch. This certainly applies to feeding preferences as well as any number of behaviors, both captive and in the field. This uniqueness is just one of the many fascinations these herps hold for me. I've caught watersnakes that will not bite, Eastern Indigos that will bite viciously, and everything inbetween. Diversity is the spice of life.That and garlic.

DMong Apr 25, 2008 10:17 PM

Thanks Howie!,.....I'm sure you are extremely "tuned in" to your animals behavior as well. It's funny, it gets to where you can just about read many of them like a book, and can anticipate exactly what moves they're going to make well before they do it.

I really like being aware of how differently they all behave, I can appreciate them as individuals so much more that way.

It's funny, to this very day, I just cannot understand how people DON'T love snakes!....I think THAT'S weird, not the other way around!

OHHH!, hey!, how did you guys do in Jasper County?????

take care!, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

elaphopeltishow Apr 26, 2008 04:00 PM

We're going to the sandhills this coming weekend instead-if the weather cooperates. First time I missed the low country trek in many years.

OZZ1978 Apr 26, 2008 05:51 PM

... is the fact that in the wild, finicky/picky eaters get their bloodlines eliminated from the breeding population. Certainly simple natural selection has a lot to do with it. In captivity, we breed for looks, color, type. A picky or finicky eater in the wild would not survive, and would not produce more finicky picky eaters ... in captivity thats exactly what happens. A finicky eater that is pretty, gets babied and nurtured, then its genes get passed on ..

Im betting that has more to do with why people have captives that are finicky. Nore so then because everyone here has bad or insufficient husbandry practices.

OZZ1978 Apr 26, 2008 05:52 PM

n/p

antelope Apr 25, 2008 12:39 PM

I think Frank told us ALL, AGAIN, that a GREATER range of temps would likely solve the problem. And he indicated that all snakes are individual, not the same, in growth rate, feeding, etc. I really have to wonder if anyone actually takes his advice and changes their practices to see for themselves if they work. Most of my cages are situated in a room that has ambient sunlight, against a wall that allows for higher morning temps early, then shaded in the hottest part of the day, then more afternoon temps. The area I selected allows for a hide/water bowl to be in the shade and a room controlled by a small window a.c. to acheive temps of low 70s. I do not use any belly heat, they all come out to bask at different times. I have many types of garters, kings, milks, pits,and rat snakes, and I have had lots of failures and some successes. The reason I am posting this type of reply is I hear a lot of people saying negative things but never hear anyone say I tried your advice and either it does or doesn't work. Many of us have had authority figures in the past that we didn't care for, but did we learn anything from them? My bet is we did, whether we admit or realized it or not. If you are seeking what is best for the individual snake, then why not try it?
I have an ego too, lol, ask anyone who works with me! But I am willing to listen to ideas and try different things if it is in my benefit! I know that most people on these forums are likely to go with what works, but to try different things is what keeps us learning, or else we would all keep our snakes the exact same way and all our snakes would look exactly the same, imo. We all know we cannot give our snakes exactly what they get in nature, but I think we could all do better than what we are doing. This post in no way is meant to ruffle any feathers (scales) or promote anyones agenda, except my own, lol!
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Todd Hughes

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