Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We know that a breeder in Arizona is selling bearded dragons that are infected with adenovirus. We have pathology reports from labs that confirm that is what they died of and talked to Vets there. There is NO doubt they have it. We have tried to talk to one Pet Store there that has sold animals that tested positive and they refuse to return calls. I am going to post part of an email from an owner that tried to talk to them also.

i went and talked to the pet store owner and had the vet write me a letter stating that the first had indeed died of the
virus. It turned out the breeder was a friend of his, and he told her to have her dragon checked, and it turned out she has it (I have no clue how they tested her), either way, the vet told her to wait four months with the babies, and if they grow and stay fine she could sell them.

This is NOT true that they are fine if they survive 4 months, they are carriers and will infect any other dragon they come in contact with...... now, a month from now or up to at least 4 years that we know of. We have YET to see one infected that ever tested clear later.

And obviously they are continuing to sell them as more reports of dragons from babies to adults dying from it are coming in. We posted this same warning a little over a year ago, when there was another breeder, selling off their stock that was infected, and we knew they were aware of it, so here it is again.

USE CAUTION when buying a bearded dragon from this area, ASK the breeder outright if they have had adenovirus in ANY dragons in their collections EVER and get it in writing. Be extremely cautious of a breeder selling off all their dragons... ask them why.. Keep quarantined any bearded dragons from this area from other dragons. Several breeders have been hit hard with this and almost all trace back to only a few breeders. Most did the responsible thing and stopped selling infected babies or adults, it appears some think dumping the healthy appearing ones will solve it..... it does not, it spreads it to other colonies NO MATTER WHAT THE VET IS TELLING YOU.

Areas of Confirmed reports:
Arizona: Still being sold
North Carolina: the breeder stopped selling and breeding last year when she found out, but there are still many of the babies she sold unaccounted for that were infected
New York:Dragons bought at the White Plains show, the breeder is unknown at this time
FloridaThe breeder to the best of our knowledge no longer sells or breeds bearded dragons
ANY STORE that sold Reptile Republic dragons in any state

Please read Dr Dan Wentz'z report on adenovirus, he is the most knowledgable in the field on this disease as he has done research on adenovirus in bearded dragons for several years now.

Adenovirus in Bearded Dragons - Report by Dr. Dan Wentz DVM

Rather than issue a broad statement damaging the business of every breeder in the great state of Arizona, at least post the actual breeders name, some of us that recently purchased dragons from that area may be interested and I am sure the other breeders in that area do not want to lose business due to such a vague reference to a very large geographic area.
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she cant mention a specific breeder, the post will get deleted.
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.0.0 leopard gecko (sebastian),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.0 bearded dragon (kaipo and dulce), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

That is just a bad policy, now rather than noting a problem with one source, all breeders in Arizona have been tainted. Has this info been posted with the name of the breeder on rec.pets.herp or anywhere else that does not have such a policy?
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but i imagine anyone that is concerned can probably email her to get specific names.
i think its primarily a liability issue (and money of course) for kingsnake...if businesses are getting trashed on the forums, theres the potential for lawsuits. sucks, but thats life.
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.0.0 leopard gecko (sebastian),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.0 bearded dragon (kaipo and dulce), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

A quick post on rec.pets.herp would sure be easy and reach a heck of a lot more people than here on kingsnake, how bout it cheri?
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?
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Yours,

NiCoLE

"Trying to save someone from their own stupidity is like trying to teach a pig how to dance: it wastes your time, and annoys the pig."

- Robert
Heinlein

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and can infect others even when they show no signs of it, its like IBD in boids or paramyxo in any almost any snake. Most will die with it, the survives can infect others.

Is cross contamination possible? Or are beardies the only carriers/infected herps?

(I have so many herps this sounds scarey)

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Yours,

NiCoLE

"Trying to save someone from their own stupidity is like trying to teach a pig how to dance: it wastes your time, and annoys the pig."

- Robert
Heinlein

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Right about the time last year when people were having problems with RR dragons, my vet also told me that a bunch of cornsnakes from one of the big petstores tested positive for adenovirus.
Chicken or egg, or totally isolated, dont know.

Dana (from New Mexico--different state, LOL)

had many infected cornsnakes, I do not know if they were related or not. Viruses are usually species specific, but we all have seen and heard of them mutating and jumping to other species.

To date, I know that adeno has been found in nile crocks, jackson chameleons, savanna monitors, corn snakes and bearded dragons. I do not know if they are the same strain. There is someone working on sequencing the DNA of it. For some reason, it seems to be more often in bearded dragons, but then that may be due to the popularity of them and owners more willing to pay the cost of a necropsy.

If it is suspected as the cause of death, a section necropsy of the liver can be done for about $40 now. With bearded dragons, the majority of the causes of unknown deaths, can be found in the liver. So that makes it a bit easier to handle the cost of determining a cause.

What's the difference between Bi-polar and Schizophrenic?
Bi-Polar's paint castles in the sky at times, schizophrenics move into them............... I thought that was funny

Anyway, thanks somegirl, I was not answering as you were doing just fine covering all the bases as why we can not post a name on the kingsnake forums, we try to respect their policies and they have them usually for good reasons.

Other poster, I think you are expanding a bit on what I said..... please reread what I advised people to do. Advising others to ASK a breeder is not implicating all breeders, if they are clear they should have no problem answering that and giving written verification of it. I do believe NOT saying anything when information is known is being as irresponsible as the breeder doing it. The advice on what to be cautious of was pretty descriptive. I am in Florida, do I feel threatened that people will not want my dragons, because that is one of the areas mentioned that has outbreaks of adneovirus? Certainly not, I have no problem giving anyone a written guarantee that my collection is clear and it seems not to affect the buyers, I have dragons that are not hatched yet reserved!

Also, if you have some recent dragons from those area, they should be in quarantine already and not a risk to your others. ASK the breeder!

In addition to kingsnakes policy, there is also the question of legalities, which I do have an attorney check before I post. I can post something that I have first hand knowledge of.

Example: I can say PetSmart was selling baby dragons infected with a multitude of diseases and that they were supplied by Reptile Republic. And I can say that Flukers Farms is also involved in that line. It's confusing as based on who is talking.... to clarify; Fluker Farms is controlled by David Fluker. FFI Reptile, Reptile Republic and Iguanas Tropicales are all controlled by Howard Fluker. Fluker Farms was a customer of FFI Reptile. (I know many people think Fluker Farms is owned by Howard Fluker, he is a shareholder, but David Fluker is the president and has control of it. The only thing they have in common are shareholders, doing business with each other and brothers.)

Those are all facts, known to me personally (a dragon that came from them with pathology reports) or documented publicly (ie, business registrations. domain registration. I can not be sued for making those statements (well.... you can sue anyone,......but it will not go anywhere in the courts and the nice part is the losing party has to pay both attorney fees, I have a VERY expense attorney).

The courts ruled that because the matters in question were of public concern, the plaintiff, to prevail on his defamation claim, must prove both that the statements in question were false and were made with actual malice - that is with knowledge that the statements in question were false, or made with reckless disregard for the truth. So......

I can not say XYZ breeder is selling infected bearded dragons because 1) their vet said so, 2) pathology reports from buyers show positive, 3) Dragons taken from the store they sold them to tested positive, 4) they acknowledged to others they knew they had it and were still going to sell them. I am not the one that personally was involved in the direct line of this information. Hence, I can not name them publicly, that would be liable. BUT.... I can say this information is known and provide copies or paste of what I DO know to be true, such as emails, posts, pathology reports or contact with the parties involved, that is first hand knowledge as long as I identify it as such.

The First Amendment give us these rights and The Communications Decency Act of 1996 gave us a clear message of what is allowed and is pretty flexible and what liability internet sites can be held responsible for:
caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=47&sec=230

awwww, a compliment from an all-around expert like you means a lot
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.0.0 leopard gecko (sebastian),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.0 bearded dragon (kaipo and dulce), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

or the darn research changes our understanding of something and sometimes that is a complete opposite of what we held to be right.

Ronnie Buck of AB Herps told me long ago not to treat an animal for coccidia or worms if you saw no other signs of distress. I went to his home and saw his bearded dragons. Healthy and as active as could be! It was hard to accept when my mind told me all they can do when in great quanity, but look what we are seeing now.

and you were answering exactly as I would have!

*blushes some more* well im glad i wound up on this forum with so many knowledgeable people to learn from...and even to learn when something is uncertain (ie the value of pellets). i also bought my second beardie from a forum member and will probably do the same for any future purchases, because i know that these breeders know what theyre doing and really care about the quality of their animals. you, of course, are one the people whose posts i often read even if im not interested in the topic, because theres always so much to learn.

hrm, if they have coccidia but you dont treat it, do the bacteria levels eventually just level themselves out? thank goodness this newbie hasnt gotten hit with anything like coccidia or yellow fungus! ive jsut got one new little boy who loves climbing out of his cage and one little girl who doesnt want to grow much (hopefully the MBV i ordered will help that out...if not, fecal time!)
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.0.0 leopard gecko (sebastian),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.0 bearded dragon (kaipo and dulce), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

with their own immune system, it's not the meds that kill coccidia, the meds inhibit their reproduction.

Only when a dragon is stressed or his immune system is otherwise compromised does the coccidia get out of hand and affects his overall health.

Most researchers I have talked to feel that heavy loads of coccidia is a symptom of something else going on in them. That could be something as simple as a change in enviroment to a disease.

Husbandry is paramount in allowing the dragon to control the levels himself and in treating any bloom that is heavy. The meds can not do it alone and keep them clear or at minimal levels. This is why some people are having very good success in lowering counts or eliminating coccidia with cleaning alone..... the dragon can not re-infect themselves and the adult parasites die off with time and the dragons on system combating it. They just need the husbandry to help them do it

I asked my breeder and they said no, they did not have it nor had they heard of any breeders that had. Now if they did do you think they would have said yes? if the answer is no then here we are back to avoiding Arizona as a whole.
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I assume you have that in writting from email now..... so I would believe it until something else said it was not true, many small breeders have not heard of it or been affected with it with they have a closed colony, so that is not surprising. But if they are online much I would be surprised they have not heard it as it being in Arizona and some other states has been known and discussed online for well over a year now. We know many Vets out there are well aware of it also as they have seen so many cases it is one of the first things they suspect with ill dragons or clutch problems.

I would expect any breeder who has read a book or visited a bearded dragon would have came across adrenovirus mentioned. In all three books I have about bearded dragons it is mentioned as something dragons can get.

Personally I would be very leary about buying a dragon from a breeder who isn't even aware of the diseases that can infict dragons. I think all breeders should get their dragons checked for this virus to make sure their stock is clean, even if they are not in the affected areas. This disease is not one we want to populate freely though the captive bred population of dragons. Espicialy considering that the real way adrenovirus is detected is after it is too late to do anything about it (ie it is fine in necropsy tests). I beleive there is a way to detect this virus before death but I can't remember exactly.

Any breeder that relies on selling dragons as part of their income should get the test done (if possible on living animals) to make sure their stock is clean. This is especially a concern as many dragons can carry the disease but not have any ill effects from it. If they get the test done and their stock is clean then it is something the breeder can state, show documentation etc to prove the healthiness of their stock. I am sure those buyers who are aware of this disease would be more confident buying from a breeder who has done this extra step to ensure his dragons are all healthy and free of the andrenovirus.

What's the difference between Bi-polar and Schizophrenic?
Bi-Polar's paint castles in the sky at times, schizophrenics move into them

Psychiatrists charge them both rent
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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com