Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Cross posted with the permission of Kingsnake:

Did you do your responsibility and respond to the inquiry sent out on the federal register regarding the "Injurious Wildlife Species; Review of Information Concerning Constrictor Snakes From Python, Boa, and Eunectes genera," dated 31 January 2008?

Did you? Today is the final day. To date only about 1200 have responded. This is a pathetic percentage of the people involved in our business. I know this is a minimal percentage of the people involved, because I have more than twice this many customers who have made purchases from me. I'm sure TONS of people involved in this enterprise have never purchased anything from me.

This particular first step at limiting our ability to keep, breed and sell Boas and Pythons is almost certainly doomed to failure. At least this first battle that is. But what many of you apparently do not get is this IS a shot across the bow. This is a way for those intent on bringing this hobby down to see what they are up against. And the fact that most of you sat back and did absolutely nothing, gives them encouragement and shows the government who is going to be harmed and or offended by making any changes to our ability to keep, breed and sell our Boas and Pythons.

The animal rights nuts are not going away. They are only going to position themselves so their attempts are as effective as possible. They do not have a leg to stand on when it comes to the science. However, they have willing accomplices to lie and deceive. They have come to ridiculous anti-scientific conclusions as is evidenced by the maps that Gordon Rodda and his cartoonist friends came up with. The Burmese Pythons now thriving in the Everglades, have not and will not even make it out of the state of Florida. They are not adapted to environments other than what they can find in the Everglades. Northern Florida is just too cold in the winter time. They will not move North without dying of respiratory problems. This is easy to scientifically prove and thankfully we have legit scientist types working on this issue on our behalf. A bit more than a week ago the Washington Post ran an article, on the front page, that was devoid of scientific facts and loaded with propaganda to scare the masses. This is a topic perfectly tailored for prime time. It is incumbent on each and every one of us to do what we can. However, this is essentially a political fight that will be fought on many fronts. The Scientific battle is perhaps the easiest one in my estimation and we will win. However, this is not going to come down to calm heads looking at the facts and coming to a logical conclusion. This is far more than that. The public relations tug of war is one heavily weighed against us already. There is a giant on the other side with that robe tied around his massive waist, and it's going to take not only our scientific contributors, but a concerted effort to educate the public about the reality of what we do. Ideally we need a much more visible presence of what we do in a positive light. Plus we need each and every one of us to participate in every specific part of this engagement. This is your responsibility. Yours and mine!

The political portion of this fight is what DEMANDS YOUR participation! We and YOU must be active in our efforts to prevent any limitation of our ability to keep, breed and sell these animals. This will not just take care of itself. This effort will be stronger WITH YOUR participation and support than it will without it. I personally have already spent a great deal of effort and money getting geared up to make a difference. Many have made far more of a specific contribution in time and money to fighting this fight than I have. There is going to be a greater effort, the specifics of which will be forthcoming very shortly. We are ALL in this together. We need every singe individual to participate at some level.

I personally would like to extend my gratitude to the following who have made tremendous efforts above and far beyond the call of duty on our behalf. Bob Ashley, David and Tracy Barker, Jeff Barringer, Bill Brandt, Brian Potter, Louis Sangermano, Andrew Wyatt and PIJAC. I would also like to thank each individual who had a part if the meeting in Chicago where the start of a movement to help protect each of us occurred about a month ago. I perceive those folks and each person who responds to the Inquiry as having done me and my family a personal favor and as such, I am grateful. Thank you. Most people are not aware of what is being done on the behalf of each and every one of us. Your participation is not only needed, but in my view, something each one should feel a compelling obligation to engage in.

Jeff Barringer has put together a great detailed instructional page on how to respond. Please, please please do this. Yes, it will take some time and effort to digest and complete. But each one must do their part. This is the earliest stages of a struggle that is not going to go away. We must be conscience of this fact and do the right thing. This is exactly the same as ignoring mites you find in one cage. Sure it's not a problem really, right? But mark my words, if we do not mount an effort to protect ourselves, we will not be protected. Sure it may take a long time for this to happen, but we need to stop this in it's tracks in exactly the same way as you can't let mites get out of hand. The sky is not falling today. I am not trying to be an alarmist about this. However, each of us make sure it doesn't.

The following is a link to the detailed instructions that kingsnake.com has posted which PIJAC has written for each one of us:

Kingsnake Instructions for a reply to Fish and Wildlife

There is strength in numbers. If you have not completed the survey or sent your information previously to PIJAC as I did, please please please do this today.
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Please give some thought to your comment. Many of our people have said things along the lines of "please don't take my snake, he's a good snake". Its important to mention question the ability of pythons and boas to live in temperate climates. The natural range of Boa constrictor comes to within 100 miles of the southern US border. Why didn't they go all the way to Colorado? They've certainly had enough time to make the move. Why haven't Burmese pythons moved into the subtropical and temperate areas adjacent to their current range? Why don't they already live in half of China? Many factors determine where animals live not just temperature.

Most of the data Rodda used when determining temperature tolerances of Burmese pythons was actually taken from the Indian Python in southern Pakistan. The Indian python is an endangered species and is not represented at all in the pet trade. Burmese pythons don't live in areas that freeze.

Rodda told me that Burmese pythons will hibernate in cold climates. He has no data to support this position. In temperate climates would the warm season be long enough for the snakes to complete their breeding cycle? Rodda claims the snakes could establish populations in places like Oklahoma and Virgina. If they survived the winter I doubt they could reproduce. He says they are "highly adaptable". What's the basis for this statement?

Read the comments. There are many people against us. There is a link from the front page of the Humane Society's website to the comment page. These people have flooded the system with their comments. Most of them think no one should keep a snake for a pet. They say captive snakes are mistreated and snakes deserve to be free! This has nothing to do with the information that USFWS is seeking but that didn't keep hundreds of their people from commenting.

Anyway, do what you can do. Do it today.

I did. It may not have been like the professionals of our great reptile world but I did put in my input.
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Education is Everything.......

"There is a link from the front page of the Humane Society's website to the comment page. These people have flooded the system with their comments. Most of them think no one should keep a snake for a pet. They say captive snakes are mistreated and snakes deserve to be free!"

I can only hope that some dogs & cats are responsible enough to have their owners neutered. (HH unleashed)

After being on my best behavior while responding to the Notice of Inquiry it sure felt good to say that. Ya'll let me be the bad guy, I don't want to turn this thread into a bashing. Yeah, I know, I probably shouldn't have said it, but I did.

I haven't had time to review any of the responses other than Kingsnake.com's but I want to thank everyone on our side that responded. "Thank you, and may God bless you all!!!"

This is not over, it will not stop here. We're going to have to take the fight to them, fight them on their own turf, using their own tactics against them.

Folks, please be on your toes and think long and hard before entering a situation that could give them any ammo. We don't need anymore bad press from our own.

Have a great day!
Mike Sanders
(HH)
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

I did...

And I will continue in my line of work in educating the public about these lovely creatures.

Here's an idea - How about emphasizing the fact that jumbo python breeders and keepers need to be RESPONSIBLE, and they bear the brunt of the RESPONSIBILITY. All the emphasis is on writing these letters and very little to NONE on the GIANT elephant in the room - jumbo pythons have brought us to this crossroads! Why are we continuing to produce thousands of retics & burms a years if The Man is breathing down our necks regarding these SPECIFIC pythons?! In addition to worrying about what the government is looking into, how bout we clean up our own house? PUT PRESSURE ON THOSE WHO HAVE GOTTEN US HERE ! If this ship sinks, it will be the results of the actions of big python breeders & dealers - they need to step up and take responsibility NOW.

Sincerely,
Shea Peterson

Shea,
"spatt02," Ha! Back for round two of your lil' spat you're having with yourself?

Actually, I think that's a dandy of a joke you made in your previous post. Ha! Ha! You rascal, you. You had me going for a minute there. Good one! Hahahaha!!! Thanks for sharing a smile!

With all due respect, it's rather obvious from your tone that you didn't come here to be a positive influence, to be sincerely legit. The last thing in the world we need is to begin fighting amongst ourselves.

Given your tone, I can't help but wonder what exactly your agenda is, so I'll just be up front & honest with you, as I am with anyone/everyone else.

If you're so concerned about pythons being regulated then you must own at least one. If you own one, thank a breeder/dealer, for without them, pythons would most likely be nearing extinction due to harvest of wild populations for pets, skins, etc...

If you don't own a python, what concern is it of yours?

Here's the real deal, like it or not. And this applies to at least two other people that have posted previous messages I've read.

You guys are starting to sound like PETA & the Humane Society. Get a grip! A good portion of python breeders are focused on producing various morphs, not the typical "normals" that have been caught/seen ONLY in the very southern parts of Florida. I've yet to see the first labyrinth, albino green, granite, or even an albino burmese python that was captured in the wild.

"PUT PRESSURE ON THOSE WHO HAVE GOTTEN US HERE ! If this ship sinks, it will be the results of the actions of big python breeders & dealers - they need to step up and take responsibility NOW."

Ha! Ha! Now, that's cute. Real cute. So now you want to blame breeders for some yayhoos' actions? Dang, you ought to consider being a politician once you become of age.

Yeah, that's right in line with suing gun makers because an idiot got ahold of a gun & did something they shouldn't have. Let's sue autombile manufacturers, too, since there are so many automobile accidents due to idiotic drivers. Does that mean that every reptile enthusiast can sue your parents for the black eye you're giving the community now?

But seriously, that really was an excellent joke. Thanks for sharing it with us. You're a champ!

Have a good one!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

HH - I'm simply pointing out that big pythons in the news is what has gotten us where we're at today. Simply as that. And until that is seen as THE cause for this gov inquiry, we as a community, are not directly taking this problem on. Every forum has their posts to write letters - and that's great - but how about we work preemptively as a whole to attempt to rectify the 'problem' perceived by the media and the public - jumbo pythons.

I don't have an agenda other than this constant battering of 'write your letter now' with ZERO emphasis on any of the actual issues that have brought these issues upon us. Where is the call for responsible keeping and breeding of jumbo pythons?

Ya, I'm from PETA. That seems to be the general response from jumbo keepers - that if you call us out, you're with them!! We must unite!! Give me a break. Let's all act like big boys here, identify the problems within our community, and act to rectify those issues. Who's got a plan for keeping burms out of the everglades? Who's got a plan to make sure retics/burms aren't making their way into pet stores and expos where any joe can purchase them only to become later problems? Where's our propoganda to fight their propoganda? Our facts won't mean squat if this becomes a real fight. That's all I'm saying. Be responsible breeders and dealers. You think I want regulation? You think I want people to stop breeding retic morphs - if that's what you took from my post, stop being so defensive and use your head.

If we're all so seriously concerned about the well being of our hobby/businesses, then calling me out to get a grip is lackadaisical and the exact opposite tone this issue needs. This entire inquiry, CNN articles, etc are based on perception and not fact. With that said, at any given time, politicians/media can drum up any story they please whenever they want to make a stand against our hobby as a whole. What are we doing to combat the issue besides letters? When some governor comes and says 'so and so is producing xx amount of retics a year, and our undercover investigator purchased xx burms at an expo in Orlando for $xx no questions asked' then what is our response? Our letters won't mean squat if we don't change our practices.

You want to relate this issue to the gun lobby? Where's our protective body? Are you serious? Not a chance - even the gun lobby has concededed into the gov for it's (perceived) most dangerous semi auto weapons to lessen the heat. What are we doing to lessen the heat on our necks?

Glad you enjoyed my 'jokes'. You apparently think I'm a teenager or someone younger and less wise than yourself. All I have to say is sometimes you're so far behind you're actually think you're winning.

Shea Peterson

"...sometimes you're so far behind you're actually think you're winning."

Awwwe, man! You just had to go & burst my bubble, didn't ya. I've been thinkin' all along that I was lapping 'em for the second time. I must not be doing to awfully bad, though, ‘cause I see you’re still right beside me.

Shea,
Your last post was better than your first one. A few things that bothered me about your first post are: Your yelling/screaming (punctuation), plus, I think you're using too broad of a brush, including many reputable & responsible breeders & dealers in your generalizations.

Don't get me wrong, I like a person with passion, but let's be perfectly honest here; it's unbridled passion that has brought all this about to begin with, and your first post was loaded with it. However, the good Lord knows that I've made more than my share of unbridled passion posts. My first reply to you could be considered one. You stepped on my last nerve at the wrong time. I think we can move on past that, now.

A person gets passionate about owning a Burmese python. They let this passion burn & build to where they actually cannot think things out all the way. Their thought process becomes severely adulterated. They purchase one and within a few years the novelty has worn off, and/or, they realize they don't have the space or funds to continue to provide for it.

That, within it itself isn't really a big deal, we all make mistakes; simply find a home for it. Sell it, give it away or take it to a rescue center. However, there are some that may still be having issues with unbridled passion of one form or another to where they think, "Hey, I'll return it to the wild. I'll let it go."

How many times have we read where some PETA nut released a bunch of chinchillas from a breeding farm, only to see the majority of those released meet their demise? Unbridled passion. That's where I feel it all starts.

"I'm simply pointing out that big pythons in the news is what has gotten us where we're at today. Simply as that. And until that is seen as THE cause for this govmt inquiry, we as a community, are not directly taking this problem on."

I have to disagree with your above statements. It's not "big pythons in the news" that's got us here, it's what that news is about, other than big pythons. If the news were about big pythons helping the general public overcome their unsubstantiated fear of snakes, we wouldn't be here discussing this.

Let me carry it one step further: The main bad press stems from Burmese pythons in the wild in the FL Everglades. The govmt inquiry included ball pythons, boas, and others. This notice of inquiry solicits biological, economic, or other data on adding species in the Python, Boa and Eunectes genera to the list of injurious wildlife. Shall we go sing the same song you're singing in the ball python & boa constrictor forums as well? Why are you singling out Burmese & reticulated pythons when the govmt inquiry didn’t?

I see that you’ve posted in those two forums but not the general python forum or anaconda, ball python or boa forums.

But let’s be realistic; ball pythons & boas aren’t big & scary like Burmese & reticulated pythons. However, that didn’t stop the Feds from including them in the inquiry.

Here’s the way I see it:
There obviously isn’t a problem with the release of large constrictors north of south FL. They simply cannot survive even a central FL winter, much less anything further north. I grew up in central FL, still have family/friends there, and know very well what the winters are like. It’s a south FL issue, period. Not a national/Federal one. To impose any kind of breeding regulations, be it self-imposed or otherwise, would do nothing to rectify the situation.

So what is the answer? Public education, plain & simple. I mean the “general” public, not the reptile enthusiast community. The type of people that would release a large, non-native constrictor into the wild do not frequent forums like these, only people that care about their captives do. Nor do people drive from out of State just to release their snake into the Everglades. Remember what you said, ” This entire inquiry, CNN articles, etc are based on perception and not fact.”

You’ve got legitimate concerns, and I’ll be more than glad to civilly discuss possible solutions. I think it would be a good idea for you to start a thread in the Herp Laws & CITES Forum

I think you’ll get better responses and will most likely be joined in with some of the more knowledgeable people that have a tad bit better self-control than you & me. It also might lessen what I perceive to be the appearance that you’re singling out any groups or anything. Plus, this thread is so far down this page that few will even notice.

Have a good one!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

I forgot to include something in my last reply.

There's actually not a whole lot of difference between your main opinion and mine concerning responsible breeding.

I've kept snakes for 40yrs. and have always liked "normals" of all species over their morphs. I never had a desire to breed any of them because I've always felt there were plenty of them available and I didn't want to add it.

I hadn't had a Burmese in years and a few years ago I my son wanted one. I found a small-time breeder not too far away thru a classified paper ad that had baby normal Burmese. When I met the guy he told me that they were both double het (albino/labyrinth) for $65 each. I thought for a minute and decided that under those conditions I might want to try breeding a few years down the road, so I got a male & female just in case.

Even though my normals are 66% double het I am feverishly trying to eliminate producing them. I've still got the one normal that survived my breeding/incubating blunders of last year. I've never tried to sell it.

I can't, don't, won't, knock anyone for breeding normals. There are lots of qualified keepers out there to sell to. There's no money in breeding normals. It is a good opportunity to gain experience at a low cost. It's "entry level." And from what I've seen over the last several years the market seems to balance itself out.

Later!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com