Reptile & Amphibian Forums

this forum will be around if all the Boa and Python breeders quit advertising.

I don't know about you, but I have been around since Jeff started this as the Alterna Page back in the day. LOL

I don't post much, but I come here to read everyones post almost everyday.

We all need to stick together, please take the time to submit your comments. The link is at the top of the page in red letters and it only takes a minute.

Dave
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PIJAC Member

This site was around long before there was much boa and python advertising. And if you haven't noticed, there's hundreds of non-boa and non-python advertisers here. If all boa and python breeders went away, this site would continue on. I hope that answers your question.

And now for a little commentary: Breeders of large snakes like Burmese pythons created their own problem by over-producing and selling to buyers that weren't able to care for giant snakes over their 20 to 30 year lifespan. There's no need to try to guilt trip corn snake breeders into trying to bail them out.

Yes, I know that legislation often passes and over time new animals (like corn snakes) can be added to it. But if large snake breeders would have taken more RESPONSIBILITY in the first place, we wouldn't be in the situation we're in. Boa and python breeders should have cleaned up your own mess while they had the chance, instead of asking others to do it for them after the fact.

Tim

Third Eye

Yes, this probably was a bad example. I was simply trying to make the point that everyone will be affected if this goes forward. and motivate a few more into submitting comments.

I wont even comment on the rest of your comments.

I hope you have a better day.

Dave
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PIJAC Member

This situation might only be focused on boa and python breeders right now (NOT only the large ones, I might add), but it is setting a legal precedent for damaging legislation against keeping reptiles. This problem WILL effect everyone, even corn snake breeders. Don't think you are immune.
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Ethans Den

I have no idea of the sites history and don't know their finances enough to know if the reduction of revenue would cause downsizing or closure.

As far as the commentary, I agree that this problem could have been reduced if the breeders of certain big species had been more responsible. However, at the baseline the problem was irresponsible owners and anti-reptile activists. Without the activists the bann would not have been put forward and without the irresponsible owners the activists would not have had the ammo. That being said there is no way for a breeder, even if they screen clients, to prevent a owner who falls on hard times from releasing their snake. Therefore it is a little fraudulent to claim that the breeders coould have for sure prevented the issue.

Secondly the bann is not only going after "Big" species. In that list are Ball Pythons which are not really, at least the adults I've kept, any longer then good sized cornsnake adults. Their just alot thicker. We would be foolhardy in the extreme if we believed they did not intend to expand the list to small species given that they included ball python's.

I don't personally keep anything bigger then a brazilian rainbow boa but this bann is just the first wave in an assault on our right to owne reptiles. Face it, the exact same arguements used aghainst Burmese could be used to prohibit cornsnakes in any state that they do not naturally occurr in. They are a very adaptive, sucessfull, strong breeding species who could diplace or devour native protected species.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

And I agree 100%. Something needs to be done, but as to which is the lesser of the evils in the end result is the big question.

I do have a big problem with 12 year old "little Johnny" wanting his mom to buy him a cute little baby Burm, or retic, or anaconda, and a few years later, it's found down the street devouring one of the neighbors dogs in front of the neighborhood kids, or the ever-growing Burmese Python population in the glades snacking down on things like small deer that animals like the Florida Panther rely on. In past decades, I've seen enough irresponsibility with snakes to last me several lifetimes.

A good portion of the general public strike me as complete morons anyway,.....so I'm not real sure what the best answer on this would be..........but I totally agree, things are not right in "Snakeville", USA......soon enough the stage will be set to come crashing down on the cornsnake, kingsnake, milksnake, ratsnake keepers too. This is how things seem to work in today's world.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I'm all for writing to prevent legislation on keeping reptiles. I've done it many, many times on National, State and Local levels. I fully support writing to stop the "Injurious Wildlife Species; Review of Information Concerning Constrictor Snakes From Python, Boa, and Eunectes genera," proposal.

What I don't support is people using dishonest tactics to achieve what they want. Implying that kingsnake.com would be shut down if boa and python breeders were put out of business is dishonest.

I'd also like to comment on the line "Without the activists the bann would not have been put forward..." This is only partly true. The HSUS is trying to prevent people from keeping all reptiles, period. But the reason for the boa and python bann is because naturalists and tourists are increasingly encountering boas and pythons which now have self sustaining, reproducing populations in Florida. This isn't natural. So in this case it's NOT the "anti-animal" activists, but rather people who work in and visit preserves in Florida.

I'd also like to comment on the line "That being said there is no way for a breeder, even if they screen clients, to prevent a owner who falls on hard times from releasing their snake. Therefore it is a little fraudulent to claim that the breeders coould have for sure prevented the issue."

I've seen breeders/resellers at shows tell people that "if you only feed them once a month, they'll stay small." Breeders and resellers are interested in making money and there's been many instances where I have seen giant snakes sold to minors, as well as deliberate misinformation given to adults who simply believe whatever the seller tells them. So yes, breeders have quite a lot to do with the issue...as do uneducated buyers.

There's never going to be resolution on this issue without honest dialogue. So let's try to "keep it real" when it comes to stating the facts, OK?

Tim

Tim I am actually keeping it real.

The reason I said I had no knowledge of the sites finances and history was because I do not and without that information I have no way to verify that the site is in danger. In other words I neither believe nor disbelieve it because I have inadequate information.

My other replies were not to the scare tactic you complained about. I was instead replying to some misleading statements in your added commentary.

I was not saying that breeders are not contributing to the issue or that they are not making very unethical/irresponsible decisions. What I was saying is that they are not the primary cause since the people releasing the animals are the actual primary cause. In other words even if there was no domestic breeding you could still have this situation occurr from the release of imported specimens into that region of Florida. That being said I despise the sort of irresponsible seller actions that you were describing. There is no justification for that kind of misrepresentation just to make a few bucks.

As far as the activist comments I made I still stand by them. If this was actually a invasive species issue arrising from concern about the everglades then this bann would not be at the federal level and it would not include all of the species that it does. Action was taken at the state level to adress the problem and I have no problem with that. Trying to make the bann federal and making it aply to species that have shown no signs of being a threat has nothing to do with the problem in Florida.

I want responsible practices in the hobby and full disclosure about all species in it but I found some of the things in your first post just as misleading as the post you were replying to.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

"My other replies were not to the scare tactic you complained about."

I never said they were. The scare tactic, as I've already stated, is in regards to this site being closed down if boa and python breeders go out of business.

"As far as the activist comments I made I still stand by them. If this was actually a invasive species issue arrising from concern about the everglades then this bann would not be at the federal level..."

It sounds like you didn't read the USFW report about the possibility of Burmese pyhtons spreading to other states.

"...but I found some of the things in your first post just as misleading as the post you were replying to."

Would you mind explaining what I said in my posts that was misleading?

Tim

My apologies, the tone in my last response was more agressive then I intended probably because I am ruched and trying to do too many things at once.

To answer your question I was refering to your statement that if the big snake breeders had been more responsible then this never would have happened.

While it is possible that the statement could be true we have no way of knowing that. The most likely hypothesis from the information I've seen is that if the breeders and sellers both had been more responsible then it would have delayed the appearance of the breeding colony in the glades. Without knowing where all the specimens in the glades actually originated we cannot say how many were escapees, uninformed owner releases, hard time releases, or other possible sources(assuming there are). Without that information we cannot really speculate as to what would or would not have prevented this short of never having had them imported in the first place.

The tone of your statement from the original post sounded like you were trying to justify the bann by blaming the hobbyists. It just rankled me a bit since the activists groups atacking reptile ownership don't care if it is a python, a cornsnake, or a gartersnake. All they care aboout is eliminating our ability to keep reptiles.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

If this was actually a invasive species issue arrising from concern about the everglades then this bann would not be at the federal level and it would not include all of the species that it does. Action was taken at the state level to adress the problem and I have no problem with that. Trying to make the bann federal and making it aply to species that have shown no signs of being a threat has nothing to do with the problem in Florida.

Exactly.
The letter I sent stated it should be up to the individual states and should not be a federal matter.

I didn't put this in the letter, but the "pythons invading California" thing really bothered me. It bothered me that my tax money went to fund research that was so obviously flawed it had to have been released out of political motivation (note I am not questioning the motive of the scientists, just the release of the flawed paper). My understanding is they didn't even bother to verify that Burmese Pythons were on record at the weather stations they used for their data points, and it is in their paper itself that they did not bother to distinguish Indian from Burmese or look at the dynamics of individual Burmese pythons.

I know from keeping Burms myself in my youth - they get sick easily if not warm enough. I also know that the condition of released pets that find their way to rescues in California is always poor, and I don't know of a single case of one surviving a winter - not even our mild winters in the California Valley.

I did my part - and I do think this is motivated more by PETA types than any real threat from the species listed.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

"I've seen breeders/resellers at shows tell people that "if you only feed them once a month, they'll stay small." Breeders and resellers are interested in making money and there's been many instances where I have seen giant snakes sold to minors, as well as deliberate misinformation given to adults who simply believe whatever the seller tells them. So yes, breeders have quite a lot to do with the issue...as do uneducated buyers. "

This is so true, it's scary. A friend of mine who purchased a ball python back in '96 was told that if she only fed it a tiny mouse once a month, it would stay small. Sure, it was only a Ball, which generally doesn't get above 6 feet, right? My friend was only fifteen and certainly wouldn't have been strong enough to handle a full-grown python. It wasn't even purchased from an expo, but from a crappy locally-owned petstore.

That petstore is still in business, by the way. They're the one I complain about because they're starving and dehydrating all of their snakes.
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Holly

0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Lizzie Borden) (missing )
1.0 Florida Kingsnake (Eddie Gein)
0.0.2 Cornsnakes
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Black Cat (Shadowfax)
1.0 Egyptian Arabian (Bagan) (Deceased )
1.0 Tennessee Walking Horse (Durango)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

Yeah I can't stand that kind of stuff either. That's why I do everything I can to promote the places that are responsible and make people aware of the faults of the places which are not.

On a side note, while a fifteen year old might not be able to handle a full grown big python species they would still have no problem with any adult ball python. I know many eight, nine, and ten year old kids that handle and take care of adult ball pythons. They basically are like a super fat cornsnake in slow motion

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

What is this legislation that may pass. Also, is it county, state, or national?

I agree that something needs to be done about the release of non native reptiles. I live in south Florida, just above the cut-off for "Florida iguanas" and also see and hear reports about pythons etc. out in the glades. But, an outright ban on all persons from keeping a reptile is ridiculous. I don't think it will ever happen though, after all this is America. We have so many rights compared to other countries, even in Europe, and we as a group get irate when the government tries to infringe on just one. I think requiring permits to breed or keep certain species would be a good compromise though.

By the way, this iguana was caught in an Orlando back yard. He was real thin and had a regrown tail so I think he was a released pet.

whats funny is here in VA we had a reptile expo and someone was selling w/c iguanas from florida... yes, they were cheap...and beautiful!!! but my problem is.... what if the florida iguanas spread? i know VA has cold winters.... but i'm sure after a while, they could grow to ignore the winter climate......
~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn(Just A Pet), A Ball Python, A Bearded dragon, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping turtle, and a white cheeked mud turtle

"But, an outright ban on all persons from keeping a reptile is ridiculous. I don't think it will ever happen though, after all this is America. "

I wish this where true but unfortunately "this is America" is starting to have less and less meaning anymore and that is really sad.

If the majority of the US population liked snakes,..like maybe if they had big brown eyes, and cute fluffy fur, this wouldn't stand a chance..LOL!, but knowing the VAST majority of the general public is absolutely clueless about reptiles, and further yet, more accurately HATES them because of widespread ignorance, and handed down folklore, this situation has real possibilities of being implimented in the "good ol' USA.

It doesn't take much imagination to see this happening,....heck, I've been seeing signs of this for decades. Snakes have been a thing to be despized and feared by most of mankind since the beginning of time. Who's side would anyone think the majority of people would be with,...snake owners..HA!....people seem to easily forget....in THIS country, the majority rules hands down!.
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Well when I said "this is America" I half kidding, but half not. If there ever was a ban there would be too much outcry. You are forgetting some people would sue and it would never be upheld because there isn't too much evidence out there for a complete ban. After the salmonella scare in the 70's with RES, you can still get turtles anywhere. Even in the florida counties where iguanas are a problem you can still own them. If guns can still be as widespread as they are now (which i dont support) than most herps will be too.

I'ts all about resposibility.

Responsible reptile husbandry and responsible gun ownership.

A while back you didn't have to walk through a metal detector to go to grade school either, but times can change,....and in a BIG way.

Also, you can't "un-invent" a gun, so the laws basically only prevent good law abiding citizens from being able to obtain them,....the "gangsta's", and all the other garbage that use them in their everyday street crime, already have them, many of them stolen, ....jive-ass punk criminals can get a gun from anywhere, good people have to go through certain avenues and lots of red-tape to finally get one. Ironic to say the very least. Cars are not to blame for accidents, the people that drive them are. You need to punish the crud that uses them, not say it's a piece of metal's fault.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

"If the majority of the US population liked snakes,..like maybe if they had big brown eyes, and cute fluffy fur, this wouldn't stand a chance..LOL!, but knowing the VAST majority of the general public is absolutely clueless about reptiles, and further yet, more accurately HATES them because of widespread ignorance, and handed down folklore, this situation has real possibilities of being implimented in the "good ol' USA. "

The sad thing is, this sort of thing is happening to the "big brown eyes, and fluffy" pets out there as well. Ie, Pit Bull bands across North America. It's sickening. I work in an animal pound/shelter and I see this behavior every day. As someone else already said, the public needs to be educated. Most politicians (such as the ones in my city) have never experienced a pit bull, or a ball python (all species of pythons and boids are illegal here, so I really do feel the frustration) and yet they stubbornly believe that if they rid the right to have these creatures as pets, dog bites wouldn't occur as often, people wouldn't get hurt (such is the "excuse" used here for the python and boa ban) and the wildlife wouldn't be in danger. yet they ceast to think that Fluffy the cat and Barker the dog can do ever more damage to local species than a python can. I can and will argue this point to the death against anyone.

Again, the best thing to do is fight ignorance with education. I can guarantee that most people who support this know nothing about these creatures, and only fight against it because of "mob mentality" (I am using pitbulls as an example. People see one and automatically assume the animal is naturally aggressive, naturally out to get them, and naturally wants to eat their little ankle biter pomeranian. This is not the case. IRRESPONSIBLE OWNERS/BREEDERS ARE THE PROBLEM! This goes for owners/breeders of ANY animal!)

I can understand those people who may take offense at those saying it's the breeders/owners fault. It is, but it's not necessarily including you in that catageory. What YOU can do is educate the public about your reptiles, and show that Slithers the Tree Boa is not a threat, but a beautiful creature that deserves the repsect it deserves, and not fear and misunderstanding.

Sorry if I rambled and didn't make any sense.

Well, yes, I basically feel the same way in regards to all that as well, and I try to tell people about snakes and such whenever I can,....but in all reality, you can only educate someone that's willing to be educated. Truth being, most of the public as I've already stated, wouldn't want to waste their precious time being educated on reptiles, nor do most give two craps about them, it's much easier to just not allow them. This is how things usually work like this.

I don't think that old lady Gladys Fletcher down the street would care to get educated about snakes if she has nightmares at the sight of a Ringneck photograph in a book, or cringes at the sight of one on TV, that ain't happenin', ....see what I mean?

What's funny is, all these ideas are being viewed here ONLY by snake enthusiasts,...if only Gladys Fletcher, and all the rest of them visited kingsnake.com and checked out the forums for a few weeks, their views might be changed, but that isn't very likely..LOL!....I know it might sound a little negative, but that's because not only am I a devoted snake keeper/breeder, but I'm also a realist, and know how most peoples mentality is on this subject. When I try to talk snakes to most people, I see an instant "Don't give a crap" look consume most of their faces. Those same faces are the ones that wouldn't mind if there wasn't a single snake left on this planet, and will also vote against owning them.....again, this is just reality.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

It's too bad that those kinds of people can't see what the world would be like for a day without snakes keeping those pesky rats and mice and various other critters in check

There is a stunningly large portion of the public that knows absolutely nothing about nature PERIOD!!, much less about snakes and other reptiles. It truly amazes me that many, many folks know nothing about nature whatsoever,...in ANY capacity!

Some people are interested in whatever's inside a concrete building,.....You, me, and many others are way more interested in what's on the outside of the buildings, i.e. animals, oceans, forests, planets, what makes animals do what they do, etc.. all this stuff is a million times more interesting to me than playing a video game, or knitting a sweater, or baking some brownies...LOL!

Like you said,...it is sad, and I'll never understand how someone can walk around on this planet for a lifetime in a complete fog as to what neat things surround them on a daily basis, but don't care in the least to ever open their eyes to see it.....oh well,...not me anyway. Oh!,....which reminds me,...my girlfriend and I went to a nearby planetarium, and actually personally witnessed the planet Saturn with our own two eyes through a GIGANTIC telescope!!!!...it was simply unbelievable looking!,...I've seen many photos, and seen it many times on TV, but seeing it with my own two eyes was just MIND-BLOWING!.....perfect sphere, space between, then the big thin band of rings! The people that let us look into the telescope said that it was as nice a viewing as could ever be hoped for too, with crisp clear low moisture content in the atmosphere making a slight "shaking" effect to the viewing of it.

anyhoo!, take care, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Ignorance re: nature, in this day and age, is not only amazing but is irresponsible. With the bombardment of media outlets, how can we not understand, at least a little, how nature works.

I guess people hear what they want to hear and see what they want to see. If we could only view things through the eyes of children.

I took my 3 yr old Thayer's kingsnake to my children's "pet day" at school. The excitement and curiosity was unbelieveable. The children could hardly contain themselves at the sight of Arthur. There was no fear, only interest. Question after question came hurtling at me. My two boys, ages 6 and 7, were able to answer just about each one. These kids were educated about snakes today. But what were they told when they got home? "The only good snake is a dead one".

Education is our only hope. The problem is we always have two sides trying to "educate" the public. Who is the public going to believe?

We here all know the truth b/c we chose to be educated and have a love of and respect for nature. My concern is that we, unfortunately, are in a vast minority.

My only advice is to love your family and your pets. You never know how long you will have them or they will have you.
Joel.

Yes,...all very true. Your example of the kids at school being very interested in the snakes, and then go home to the parent's only to tell them "the only good snake, is a dead snake" is all too common........it's hard to force an ignorant adult to think, or wonder, but as you mentioned, it comes naturally for kids.

The term "Truth is stranger than fiction" does come to mind!..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I just wish parents would foster and support their children's interests instead of trying to force their own opinions on children. I got back into the snake hobby big time b/c my oldest son came home with a baby eastern milk snake. We could not get it to eat so we let it go and I promised him we would get a snake. Now he, along with his two younger brothers, hold the snakes, help clean their cages, etc.

Not that I am the perfect parent, but I try to steer my boys in directions that they are interested. I believe if more adults would do this, ignorance would decline.
Joel

n/p
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

What an interesting thread...wish I had more time to compose this, but here are some thoughts...

1. Alternative Theory for Source of Non-native breeding populations in Florida. Remember Andrew? Charley? How about Francis aor Jeanne? Not ringing a bell? How about Katrina? Each of these hurricanes unleashed massive destruction on Florida, destroying homes, zoos, "snake farms", wildlife parks and the like. How many non-native critters escaped and were never recaptured?

2. Democracy at Work...Or Not? Contrary to popular belief, the USA is not a "Pure" Democracy, we are a Representative Republic. We elect Representative, who represent our intrests (at least in theory). This prevents a "dictatorship by the mob" which is what happens with pure democracy.

3. Nature Shows, Unspoiled Environments, Bad Science, and The Media. The idea that somewhere out there is the "Unspoilt Place - Untouched by Man" is utopian nonesense. We can no more prevent human impact on the environment then we can uninvent computers or automobiles. The unpleasent facts that no one wants to know are this:

A. 99.999 percent of all species that have ever existed are now extinct, 99.999 percent of all species that now exist will become extinct in the future. This likely includes Homo sapiens.

B. The number of species actually driven to extinction by humans is pitifully small and insignificant compared to those driven to extinction by Nature. We have wipped out Passenger Pidgeons, Dodo Birds, Tasmanian Tigers, and few others. We could theoretically wipe out most of the large mamels, birds, fish, reptiels and amphibians. This is a drop in the bucket. In fact, when it really counts, we are powerless to wipe out those creatures that we really want to - rats, mice, cockroaches, lice, fleas, mosquitoes, and the deadly diseases they carry -paulge, malaria, yellow fever, etc. You can add feral cats and dogs to that list, as well as introduced pests like Cane Toads and Mongoose.

C. Nature is the Big Killer. 65 Million years ago a Meteor the size of Manhattan wiped out the dinosaurs - the most dominant and successful large land vertebrates ever. At the time of their demise, a species we call Troodon had developed bipedal gait, binocular vision, larger brains, grasping hands,and social living habits. Sound familiar? That's where hominids were a few hundred thousand years ago. Given a little more time its concievable these Troodontids (or somethng like them) could have been where we are today. We are on the verge of being able to prevent large meteor impacts. What if the Troodontids or their kin had done this?

Aren't you glad I didn't have more time to think about this?

Cheers,

John D
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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
1.1 Eastern Kingsnakes