Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just wondering, other than Pines, what snakes are protected there? I don't plan of taking back anything, but you never know if something exceptional turns up.If I catch 2 kingsnakes, should I put them in the same bag? Wait a second, that would be for another post.

Well, Im not exactly sure which species/subspecies are protected now in that area, but I do wish you guys well on the hunt(for whatever that might be).

As for putting any kings you find in the same bag,......just be prepared to take some serious field notes when it happens!..LOL!!

later Howie!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

When you guys make your silly remarks, it sorta reflects on your own insecurities. That said, I would think when field collecting, to not assume anything. That is, do not put more then one snake in a bag, with any species you feel is valuable enough to take from nature.(as a pet, preserved specimen, or breeder)

I do have a funny story, I was in central mex(mid to late seventies), and was looking for Ruthvens kings. There had only been the type specimen and three others ever found and all from the exact same site, one small outcrop on top a grassy hill. Well we went to that spot and it was totally destroyed.

So we found a nearby area that appeared good(I have found sheds before going to the original site) There was not much known about these new kings. I started out and found one within minutes, a normal milksnake looking king. Then in about ten minutes, I find a greeri looking individual, hmmmmmmmm is it the same or is it a different type king?? I put them in the same bag. A little later I found another, I opened the bag to put the third one in, to find the first two all coiled around eachother(eating/fighting/fisticuffs). Hmmmmmmmm same or different species? We seperated them. Well over the next two days I found 25 more and found them in many color and pattern morphs. We did put several in the same bags, and did not have a problem again.

Anyway, My permit was for unlimited mexicana.(nice) But I only kept a trio of young animals. Upon returning home, I found out(was published on three animals) that these animals are small, adults being 24 inches, only we had a hard time finding them under three feet. With many individuals exceeding 45 inches. Also, we found a wide range of pattern types, and the discription was of a milksnake type pattern. Oh well, what do we know. Cheers

That's some interesting stuff!,...I've always thought the mexicana complex was very interesting and extremely multi-faceted to say the least. And yes, not too long ago, not much was really known about them, or if some were separate ssp, etc...Thanks for sharing that cool story.

BTW, we were just having some fun with our silly comments,.....no insecurity issue here, although I probably have a few other's...LOL!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

To me it would be interesting to see if such a place would run into the same problems as we do in this country with development.

"I opened the bag to put the third one in, to find the first two all coiled around eachother(eating/fighting/fisticuffs). Hmmmmmmmm same or different species? "

First off I find nothing unusual about the story, other than its about collecting mexicana and how cool is that. Still the story makes me further questions some of your conclusions on captive snakes. If captive kings eating each other is as you put it always a poor husbandry (read starvation) thing then it would seem from this, and the myriad of similar examples I've heard over the years, that conditions you describe as near starvation for captives is normal for wild populations. If that is the case wouldn't the power feeding of captives such that cannibalistic tendencies are completely suppressed be unnatural?

In anticipation that you will declare your example to have been two different species let ME tell YOU a funny little story. A couple of years ago I was collecting easterns off of a site I knew was about to be developed (If memory serves crimsonking has an animal from this site). I soon found two kings about 20 feet apart and put them into the same bag. One was a little smaller than the other but not a terribly so. For S&G lets say they were 30 and 34 inches, both as robust as you ever see in wild kings. About a half hour later when I look in on them they are in deaths grip. Were they starving, I don't think so, different species, negative, improperly socialized, forget about it. Just kings doing what comes natural, you bet.

On the same vane when I moved to VA in 86, I found a VERY productive site. It was along a classic bojack ridge adjacent low woodlands and was owned by an old black farmer named Elias. Elias was a hold out who just wanted to live out his days on his land but his 50 or so acres were being pressed from all side by development. The first day I got his permission to hunt his property I found numerous kings in the early stages of emaciation. I believe that nearby populations had been escaping development by taking refuge on Elias's farm for years and that this imbalance resulted in the near depletion of their food supply. Anyway that first day I pulled about eight of the sad fellows off the property and I'm sure that several shared bags yet none tried to eat each other. Later that day I thawed some mice which each of them took directly off the forceps without hesitation or aggression towards one another.

The moral of these two opposing stories is that nothing about king feeding behavior surprises me. They are all individuals that can and will uniquely respond to complex environmental factors that go way beyond how many f/t mice you might throw them in captivity. IMHO they defy clear black and white pronouncements by self-described experts.

To finish up the Elias farm story, the old guy plugged along for several years tending a large garden and tinkering with his old tractor but he always welcomed this crazy white boy to collect snakes on his property. I must have collected 50 kings off that property. I even started to get some flack for it from herper friends but after a time things on his farm returned to normal and I started finding other snakes, garters, hognose, black racers, rats, and copperheads in addition to a fairly stable population of now healthy looking kings. It got to the point that I could read the weather and go check up on several wild snakes that were predictably in their appointed locations. They were the best pet snakes I ever had! Then like all good spots, others discovered it. Boards and tins carefully laid years before were flipped and left overturned. A small pile of brick debris towards the back with a piece of plywood on top which had housed a copperhead for at least two years was demolished, the plywood carelessly thrown aside and the copperhead, like the other resident snakes, was gone. A little after that, Elias either passed away or moved on after giving into family and developers who envisioned another nondescript subdivision on his homestead. I never learned which but I like to think that he died at home even if that sounds odd. His house, missing his presence fell into disrepair at an amazing rate and within the year was demolished along with the habitat I'd hunted for years. We've all got sites like this but the loss of this one was hard to take as its was tied to a cool old dude that I miss as much if not more than the chance to walk his land.

Tony,......that was a very interesting story indeed!, and some good information could be taken from all that.

I think one obvious moral to your story would be that the only thing predictable about many kings, is their unpredictability!

And on that note, I would strongly agree.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

....be friends with Tony and get a real cool king!

Thanks TonyD!
:Mark

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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

hhahahaha!!!,..yeah, that's even better!..LOL!

NICE one!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

That must be the female. Believe she is the one in the story. I remember getting ahold of the male to pair her with. If memory serves he was a real looker.

Tony that is a female in the pic. The first one...
The male is in with another NC female right now and getting busy.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

First, I only read two paragraphs as those need to be addressed before "that" issue gets totally mixed up with others.

IF you actually read my story, it said I found several morphs and inbetweens, so they are the same.

Second, you are assuming lots and lots of stuff in nature. We know, some get along just find, we also know, others don't. When you or I were in the field collecting, WHAT DID WE KNOW?????? We do not know anything. We do not know what group or family was what. For instance, in that story, many of the snakes we found were in pairs and trios. As they say "Splain that RICKY" Some groups were old adults, some young midsized, others were babies, all in groups. Hmmmmmmmm The plot thickens. You have some splaining to do!!!!

But then, that is not the story or the context. The context of the original question was, CAN YOU RAISE/KEEP KINGS IN PAIRS or GROUPS. The quesiton was specifically aimed at me(FR). So I answered it with my OWN experience, and that is, YES, I do that now, and have done it successfully since 1964,

Then I explained what I thought was important, and that is not all that complicated.

So you disagree, your welcome to do that you know. But to break your rule is simple, I only have to keep a pair together, and that proves you wrong. That I have broke your rules for decades and many many generations of many kinds of kings, sorta makes your thoughts, unique to you or your(maybe limited) understanding of reptiles. Clearly, your understanding is not mine. Clearly mine has worked good enough to establish many kinds of kings for your keeping pleasure.

Many of the morphs on this forum were pioneered by me, and done so in groups. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Say what you?

But your right, you should not keep kings in groups if you do not understand what your doing. You should have some knowledge of their behavior.

The above makes two kinds of keepers, ones that could give a hoot about the natural behaviors their snakes have. And have no need to observe them. And of course, those what wish to express what these snakes really are, or what they maybe.

Me, I like them, I like what nature made them. I like the behaviors included in their survival. I like to see those in captivity. You on the other hand area welcome to whatever you want to see. But please, lets us explore the beauty of these kings, and that is not restricted to some goofy color morph. Cheers

Frank if you read my posts I think you'll find that I too have kept kings together. I don't think you are wrong in saying it can be done. I think you are wrong in saying if one does happen to eat its cage mate it is because of poor husbandry. Two kings in a confined space is an unnatural condition plain and simple and as they say, caca happens. Ricky here ain't the one conjuring hard fast rules so no splainin is needed.

Yes sir, splaining is needed, as I have been doing this, keeping kings together for 44 years.

With that in mind, any husbandry that allows less then that to occur is indeed poor when compared to one that allows more to happen.

If I kept them in groups and fed them once a week, indeed they would entertain the thought of eating eachother. So I didn't feed them once a week, I fed them far more often, and not only did they get along well in groups, but they multiclutched well. They also timing their reproduction to breed and lay within a couple days of eachother. They also were upset when one member was removed for one reason or another(to breed with a particular male being the most common reason)

So without question, if you ask ME, and you are, I do think that keeping kings in conditons that cause cannibalism, is less/then, or not so good husbandry. Cheers

Sigh!!! Frank there is a level of husbandry, in which long-term health is fostered and where natural tendencies are not suppressed. This level of care is perfectly acceptable for maintaining kings individually. It is not conducive to communal caging, at least until they are well matured. One does not have to starve or neglect king snakes (particularly sub-adults and younger) to bear out natural cannibalistic tendencies in a communal setting. The crux of the issue here Frank is that you are just arrogant enough to believe that if people don't do what you do they are doing it wrong. Here's how this thing should have gone:

Ameron: Hey FR can I keep kings together

FR: Yes but you'll need to feed your animals on the heavy side to mitigate the risk of accidents.

Don't think anyone would have called you on that but instead you got on your box and starts talking about how "odd" the rest of us appear to you and how we need to "forget what we think we know" and tell us one has to " starve them into eating each other" which is complete bull.

Perhaps you just have a flair for drama Frank but I called you on this because some kid or novice is going to read it and put two otherwise perfectly healthy and well cared for kings together and end up with one.

Bravo my good buddy Tony. I'd say more but someone posted on here that I have insecurities, and it has just frazzled my self confidence so as to not be able to continue this post.

Feeding your kings every two or three days (or how ever often) so they dont eat each other when kept together is one way to do it but it is also just another way of caring for them so that they do what YOU want them to do or should I say so they dont do what you dont want them to do (eat each other). To insinuate that it's the only proper way to care for them or that others are not leting their snakes live a full life or are not providing proper husbandry when they dont keep them together all the time and mainly just put them together during breeding is just wrong. I'm not saying it is wrong to care for them as you choose to but it's just another way of caring for them so they do what YOU want them to do. Since you have spent more time than most in the field and been doing this longer than most(I know this as you repeat it in some form in almost every post you make)I know you know that kings dont spend all their time together. Randy Whittington

..snakes in a bag will do funny things too.
I say that's terrible husbandry! A bag...sheesh...
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

I don't even keep two bags together.

.
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

Cool story. Did you do scale counts or ever find out if they were all the same thing?

>>Just wondering, other than Pines, what snakes are protected there? >>

According to this website:
http://www.ncwildlife.org/fs_index_07_conservation.htm

(Common Name, Scientific Name, State Status, Federal Status)
Carolina pigmy rattlesnake, Sistrurus miliarius miliarius, SC
Carolina watersnake, Nerodia sipedon williamengelsi, SC
Eastern coral snake, Micrurus f. fulvius, E
Eastern diamondback rattlesnake, Crotalus adamanteus, E
Mimic glass lizard, Ophisaurus mimicus, SC, FSC
Northern pine snake, Pituophis melanoleucus melanoleucus, SC, FSC
Outer banks kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula sticticeps, SC
Southern hognose snake, Heterodon simus, SC, FSC
Timber rattlesnake, Crotalus horridus, SC

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Lindsay Pike
Urotopia Uromastyx

Thanks for posting that info. for our boy Howie,...we wouldn't want him getting hauled off in cuffs, now would we!?..LOL!

Hope things are going well with you and your critters!

take care buddy!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Howdy Doug,
Good seein' ya at that WestPalmBch show. Below is photo of the fella I found on the way home, just a few hours after you brought up the topic. To say it was a lifer seems like such an understatement.
Please come by the Orlando show this month and discuss... oh, how 'bout South Florida Rainbow Snakes, or albino Southern Hognose, or winning lottery tickets and such.

Photo by Brad B

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Lindsay Pike
Urotopia Uromastyx

hahahhaha!!!,....man!,....ain't that somethin'!?, it's just too unbelievable to imagine! That is one nice photo too man!

The regal noble little beast looks very nice coiled up there.

I'm extremely jealous, but I'm glad at least it's in your posession, and not some stupid kids!..LOL!

Again,...what a beauty Lindsay!..way to go!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Wow.... first off wow again... what a freakin' beauty! What a find... nice to see the pics to match to the story... again REALLY nice find!

Chris

...say "didja hear that Crimson King just forund a s.FL rainbow?"
or "man...that Crimson King guy sure is lucky, he just hit the Lotto"
Thanks in advance!
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

good luck.
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Todd Hughes

Thanks Todd, and almost everyone. Lots of fun in the sandhills. 3 Copperheads, 3 Coachwhips, 1 Scarlet King, 1 Northern Pine(go Dennis!), every lizard found in N. Carolina, the usual 674 racers, and to top it off an Irish Bar in town when not flipping tins or cruising. We of course took nothing but some pics. Also put the fear of god into Phil and Ryan. But for my insecurities I would tell you that tale as well.