Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Alrighty folks, this is gonna be a long one, in order for me to explain everything fully, so I apologize in advance and thank anyone who takes time to read this! I feel I need to give the full background to the situation,

Some of you may remember reading some posts of mine from last year regarding a sick bullsnake that I was trying to get back to health...He was advertised here on Kingsnake.com as a tame CB orange bull, but I believe he was actually WC, due to the amount of scarring he had on him as well as his absolutely psychotic attitude and the condition he was in.

It started with me receiving this bullsnake from the previous owner through this site, he came to me very sick with what I thought at the time was a RI.(severe Popping,gasping, open mouth breathing, a lot of mucus etc....he was also very skinny) So I took him to the only herp vet in the area, who turned out to be a fraud. She put him on the wrong medicine, at the wrong dose for over 8 months....I didn't realize this until I took him to my current herp vet, I'd never had any of my reptiles get sick before, so this was all new to me.

When this fraud vet's treatments didn't work I found a new herp vet who is my current vet now, and he's amazing. He ran all sorts of tests on the snake and treated him for possible parasites. He put him on every reptile antibiotic on the market to see if we could combat what we both believed to be a RI. When none of those worked he thought it could possibly an obstruction in the snake's throat and ran more tests to rule out possibly having to perform surgery on him.

With surgery ruled out we tried one more series of antibiotics, and had very little luck, it seemed to lessen the severity of his breathing troubles while he was on them, but they would come back full swing as soon as he was off the medicine.

Finally the vet concluded that we've done everything possible for the snake, and if he hasn't responded to any of the treatments he probably wont. The snake had gained a lot of weight and was eating great so the vet was hopeful that maybe he'd pull through alright and told me just to watch his condition, and that was that.

I've been watching his condition and for the past several months, he's been on a steady decline of health. His breathing troubles have gotten bad, his mouth is literally almost dripping with mucus,he's stopped eating and he's lost a very large unhealthy amount of weight, and has become very lethargic....this usually "psychotic and energetic" snake who despises handling of any kind barely struggles anymore. He used to be my best eater, and would eat year round, with an incredible appetite...I used him to clean up my other snakes left-overs.

I've been trying my best to keep him hydrated, and as a last resort I even tried force feeding him some small prey items but he didn't hold any of it down.

My vet still stands by what he said, that he's been through every treatment available and he didn't respond to any of it, so it's very unlikely he will. His illness was probably very advanced way before I ever laid eyes on him.

I have litterally emptied out my bank account on this snake, and I'm even in debt to others for some of his vet bills. When is it time to say goodbye? I hate feeling like I'm playing god with a life, but I hate seeing him suffer and seem to slowly die right before me.

I love all my pets with all my heart and I hoped I would never have to make a decision like this, I just want to make the right one.

Thanks for reading this, it means a lot. Even if I get no replies, I just needed to get this off my chest.
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--SneakySnakesINC--

1.0 Northern Pine Snake (Oshy)
1.0 Bull Snake (Irwin)
0.1 Ball Python (Nagini)
0.1 Yellow Rat Snake (Ember)
1.0 Albino Black Rat Snake (Vegas)
1.0 Citrus X red phase bearded dragon (Twyman)
1.1 Oriental Fire Bellied Toads (Spot and Dott)

2.0 Equines (Sherlock the draft and Cleatis the donkey)
4.0 Felines (Caesar Ray, Pharoh, Phoenix, Boomer)
1.0 WC boyfriend (Ryan)

Sometimes all the help in the world cannot bring them back to health.

Euthenisation is never an easy thing, and the last choice we want to make, but in many cases it's more humane to end the suffering rather than prolong it.

You have already gone further than most ever would have.

There is nothing wrong with feeling the way you do. It just means that you are human. (with a heart)

My sincere condolences to you.

Kind regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
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1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cane" Rescue
1.2.9 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids
0.0.2 Thamnophis marcianus - Checkered Garters "spot" & "Zig"
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garter - Princess
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua"
0.1.10 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snakes
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
0.1.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER"
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
0.1.0. calico RAT
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

Thank you for the response and the kind words. This has definitely been hell. I'm going to do a little more research and talk to a few more people before I make my final decision, but I'm prepared for the worst, no matter how much I hate it.
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--SneakySnakesINC--

1.0 Northern Pine Snake (Oshy)
1.0 Bull Snake (Irwin)
0.1 Ball Python (Nagini)
0.1 Yellow Rat Snake (Ember)
1.0 Albino Black Rat Snake (Vegas)
1.0 Citrus X red phase bearded dragon (Twyman)
1.1 Oriental Fire Bellied Toads (Spot and Dott)

2.0 Equines (Sherlock the draft and Cleatis the donkey)
4.0 Felines (Caesar Ray, Pharoh, Phoenix, Boomer)
1.0 WC boyfriend (Ryan)

Without going too much into this yet, EXACTLY what were the medications he was put on from the fraud?. Then what medications did the next vet administer?. And what temperature(s) are you keeping it at?, these are absolutely CRUCIAL points as to it ever getting healthy or not.

Boy, after 8 months and even well beyond that, a lot can go beyond hope after being allowed to continue for so long.

In any case, I'd like to know what was done, and be able to suggest anything else to be done now. Long ago there was certainly plenty to be done for him, but it's hard to say now.

anyway, please tell me those forementioned details, and we'll try to go from there.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Please if at all possible, tell me the dosages of the medications too please, as this is obviously EXTREMELY important!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thanks for your reply,

He is kept in a 4x2x2 enclosure with the temp being around 75-85 at the warm and cool ends, with a slightly higher basking area at the warm end that I added when I realized he was sick.

The first vet gave him Baytril, I've heard that many don't have much luck with this drug, and I definitely didn't...She put him on too little a dose for his size, with too much time in between doses for how sick he was at the time, at least thats what my current vet had said. She kept me at this for over 8 months, while I wondered why it didn't seem to be doing anything. I remember reading that a RI usually doesn't take that long to clear up with proper medications, so thats when I decided to find a new vet.

As far as giving you the specifics on what the other vet treated him with, I'll have to find all my vet records for him, everythings been shuffled around since we moved and had the house remodeled. I'm sick as a dog myself right now, but once I feel up to it I'll hunt them down.

I do know the one drug that seemed to help at first was called Gentocin, seemed to ease his breathing troubles slightly the first couple of days, but after that he didn't show anymore response.

My vet said it seems he just doesn't respond to treatments at all.
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--SneakySnakesINC--

1.0 Northern Pine Snake (Oshy)
1.0 Bull Snake (Irwin)
0.1 Ball Python (Nagini)
0.1 Yellow Rat Snake (Ember)
1.0 Albino Black Rat Snake (Vegas)
1.0 Citrus X red phase bearded dragon (Twyman)
1.1 Oriental Fire Bellied Toads (Spot and Dott)

2.0 Equines (Sherlock the draft and Cleatis the donkey)
4.0 Felines (Caesar Ray, Pharoh, Phoenix, Boomer)
1.0 WC boyfriend (Ryan)

Okay,....I was really wondering about the temp conditions it was kept at in conjunction with the antibiotics. And the higher temps(high 80's) sound sufficient enough to help a sick snake combat the infection by helping boost the metabolism, and help it's own auto-immune system help matters there as well.

At this point, it does sound pretty darn advanced, but maybe one last try with a good reptile antibiotic (Amikacin) that just might do it at a dose of..... 5 mg/kg IM, then
2.5 mg/kg IM q 72 hr. However, if this doesn't seem to do anything soon, I would strongly suggest that the poor snake be put out of it's misery. That's only if it's not far too late already, which is a real possibility here.

Also, it might sound a little cruesome, and you might not want to do it yourself, but you don't necessarily have to go to a vet to relieve it's suffering either,....there are a number of quick ways to do this if you use your imagination. It's truly sad that it might have to come to that for the animal, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do, as blunt as that may sound. Maybe if the Amikacin treatments do nothing, the vet will put it to sleep for free,....after all, he got plenty of money from you already with all the treatments.

I really wish you and the poor snake well, and hope things work out here,.....but if not, you know what should be done for the snake.

sincerely, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Unfortunately he's already been on that antibiotic as well, with no results.

I think it's time to end this guy's suffering, as much as I hate to be the one to make that call. I've got someone who agreed to do it for me, quickly and pain-free.
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--SneakySnakesINC--

1.0 Northern Pine Snake (Oshy)
1.0 Bull Snake (Irwin)
0.1 Ball Python (Nagini)
0.1 Yellow Rat Snake (Ember)
1.0 Albino Black Rat Snake (Vegas)
1.0 Citrus X red phase bearded dragon (Twyman)
1.1 Oriental Fire Bellied Toads (Spot and Dott)

2.0 Equines (Sherlock the draft and Cleatis the donkey)
4.0 Felines (Caesar Ray, Pharoh, Phoenix, Boomer)
1.0 WC boyfriend (Ryan)

I fully understand, and although it's painful for you as well, I think that's probably the best thing to do at this point.

Best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I'm sorry about your snake. It sounds like you did everything you could. A lot of people would never have gone through all that trouble to help a snake. I hope everything works out for you.

God bless.

Thank you for your kind words. I'm sure things will work out for the best as well.
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--SneakySnakesINC--

1.0 Northern Pine Snake (Oshy)
1.0 Bull Snake (Irwin)
0.1 Ball Python (Nagini)
0.1 Yellow Rat Snake (Ember)
1.0 Albino Black Rat Snake (Vegas)
1.0 Citrus X red phase bearded dragon (Twyman)
1.1 Oriental Fire Bellied Toads (Spot and Dott)

2.0 Equines (Sherlock the draft and Cleatis the donkey)
4.0 Felines (Caesar Ray, Pharoh, Phoenix, Boomer)
1.0 WC boyfriend (Ryan)