Reptile & Amphibian Forums

While visiting with Craig H earlier today, the topic of selective breeding came up. Speaking for myself, I have assembled a collection of very attractive locality bred alterna. The vast majority of my collection is now 2 or 3 generations removed from original wild caught animals. Each year, I tend to hold back a few of the babies that I feel are the most attractive. These animals are eventually integrated into my breeding colony and some of their most attractive babies are then held back. After 2 or 3 generations of this type of selective breeding, I am reliably producing very pretty babies. In most cases; however, the offspring no longer truly reflect what you would expect to encounter in the wild. They generally have better color and more interesting patterns than the majority of their wild (non-captive) relatives. My question is this. Does this type of selective breeding enhance or diminsh the integrity of these locality bred alterna? Craig and I batted this around alittle, but we never came up with a definitive position.
David Doherty

>>Does this type of selective breeding enhance or diminsh the integrity of these locality bred alterna?

As a non-breeder with no training in genetics, I'll offer my own meaningless opinion: So long as the traits being selected for are characteristic (even if "enhanced" of that locality, I'd still value them as representing the locality. OTOH, line breeding a locality to select traits more representative of another locality or a strange morph might be very interesting, but NOT what I'd consider "locality".

pure enhancement.

Somehow the most stunning ones do appear in the wild right? I feel they completely represent what is possible in the wild. Throw an unrelated ugly one from the same locality in the mix once in a while and your colony should be on track, same goes for those you sell or give away into the hobby,there is a good chance it will be paired up with a locality animal from different genetics.

I am not saying selective breeding = inbreeding but I would think there are instances in the wild where more inbreeding has occured for a period and then there would be other times when the genes mix up more. Since it only takes a few generations of selective breeding to produce stunning patterns, the stunning genes are not that deeply hidden and could be naturally turned on over possibly millions of breedings in the wild.

As for Hypos,Anerys and especially Ghosts, I think this doesn't hold true because they have traits that make them less suitable to survive in the wild, however they make one of the coolest locality captives without a doubt.

Just my opinions on the topic, but I would be confident to say that because you are not creating the genes, you are just turning on what is already in there, anything you produce by selective breeding alterna during your lifetime has had in the past,or will have at some time in the future a naturally occuring visually identical twin.

Jim

get a mix of answers.I see that it depends on the person looking to purchase such animals.One guy will want the locale look of the animal (dirty blairs etc for langtry) and the next guy will want the best looking animal possible but still want it to be pure locale.
I really comes down to what people like themselfs.

L8r Shannon

similar to how far apart can two breeders be found and still call their offspring locality specific. For me, line breeding is great, but I wouldnt call anything that has been line bred, a locality snake. The probability of inbreeding in nature is pretty good, but the odds decrease for a specific offspring to breed back to its parents. The odds would decrease exponentially from there for each proceeding offspring to breed back to the original parent. Sibling inbreeding is likely, however like before the odds decrease for 2 specific siblings to find each other. I dont have anything further removed than 1 generation from the wild, so Im pretty jaded about what Id call locality, but thats my $.02

We are in the desert for the rest of the week
Cell# 845-596-1737
truck # 845-641-0209 (Tom)

>>Does this type of selective breeding enhance or diminsh the integrity of these locality bred alterna?

Personally, and in my opinion, it's all fine and dandy until your Huecos look like your Black Gaps which look like your 9 milers. People start to wonder when that happens.

I agree that it's all a matter of choice and opinion.

Forks
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

Some of the most stunning altrna I've ever seen personally have been wild caught. just as an example (and not to brag ), the female I caught on the last cut south of Alpine near Elephant in '06 (see pic below)is in my opinion one of the most attractive alterna I've ever seen anywhere. As long as you're selecting merely for appearance, I doubt it has much if any effect on the other traits that make up a locality snake....

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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Since different localities tend to "bloom" differently in several generations of captivity I think it is still valid to designate them as locality, just not as "representative" of the norm for that locality.

check out the gallery on the alterna page......you'll get a good feel for the phenotype of a wild alterna.....i don't think the "fancy" ones have a great survival rate out there.....hench most wild caught alterna will reflect nature's selective breeding for that locale, while our captive produced phenotypes are driven by the breeder's taste or in response to a commercial demand.....now here is a result of natural selective breeding....

ended the discussion.....and how come he ain't never been alterna o'damonoff.......

Bob, you are killing me already with Vadar. He has to be the single most posted snake on the internet period.Jeff B should give out a award of somekind for the most posted snake ever.

LOL,,,,
L8r Shannon

We use to refer to that color phase as an "Anderson Morph". Sorry Brad....

Ric Blair phase 9 miles, or Junos, would be another perfect example.

You and Hollister and co! If I would of said what Joe said above I would of got banned. LOL. BA

Loud and clear here...

Steven