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Sorry no photos available. It's medium chocolate brown covering its entire body, no markings or pattern, with a cream belly. Aprox 3 feet long, quarter sized thickness. Head is distinct from body. Found in woodland area 1/4 to 1/2 mile from pond, 1/2 to 3/4 mile from the river, in Land Between the Lakes, northern middle Tennessee. Obviously not venomous. It resembles the coach whip but i read they have bellies same color as body. Any help with such limited info?

Well, from what you described, and the location as well, I'd say it is indeed an Eastern Coachwhip(Masticophis f.flagellum).

This photo clearly shows that Eastern Coachwhips can, and do exhibit a creamy/beige ventral surface. Also any of the other limited brown colored snake(s) in that area are much thicker in the neck region, and have a smaller less distict head in comparison to their body(e.g. adult mole Kingsnake), as they can many times typically display a solid brown coloration when they become older as well.

If it was dullish dark gray, or black, then I'd say it was a Black Racer. But from your description, I would say that it is indeed an Eastern Coachwhip.

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

That sounds good, D, except...there are no coachwhips in LBL.

That's a real puzzler. There were no markings on the belly? Plain cream belly, plain brown back, and the size rule out pretty much everything in the region. It could be a very oddly-colored racer or garter. Did you notice if the scales were keeled or smooth?

i think it was smooth scaled from my memory. It was definately solid cream to pale yellow belly, no pattern, and back from head to tail was solid brown, not light like the coachwhip above, but not dark like a hershey bar, but more like the "brown" in crayola. I have checked google images of all the 32 known TN species and 30 known kentucky species (non-venomous), and from what i can tell, it is either an odd morph of something... maybe a rat snake gone strange, or because it was very near a popular campground, a relocate or release maybe? It's head was not triangular, more diamond, but it was defined from the smaller neck, unlike my kings that have about as thick a neck as head. Also from eye to tip of nose was longer than my kings (my wife noted it's nose was "pointier".

I did snap some photos with a disposable camera which will be developed within a few days, probably good enough to give a bit more detail.

If you are familiar with the area, i found it just outside of Piney Campground.

Coachwhips come in a huge variety of color variants, is this one brown enough?,....if not, I could show you a darker one(black), or or a much lighter one, or any combination in between, even pink! they are THAT variable, also I know for a fact Eastern Coachwhips are in many parts of Tennessee.

hope this helps out a little more.

~Doug

Image

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

It didn't display as I intended, so click the image link below the Coachwhip photo I posted.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Hello--
Please post the photos when you are able. I am very familiar with the LBL area, and my off-handed guess would be an odd colored black racer. Nor would I rule out some species of captive snake turned loose. Anything is possible.

Henry, Benton, Decatur and Carroll counties all have some terrific herping areas. In general, there is a lot of observable wildlife along the Tennessee River in that area.

rgds,
althea

From head shape and color, i think it was a coachwhip, a young one at around 3ft. I haven't been able to find any photos of a brown racer, so i can't compare. The only reason I was confused is that i read that a coachwhip would have the same color belly as back, which we have seen was not accurate.

I'm not ignoring the poster who said there are no coachwhips in LBL, but can you provide some documentation of that? I can only find that they are in TN...

I frequent camden, paris and dover. Do you know any specific spots known for speckled kings? I use to see them quite often when I was growing up but haven't seen any recently and would like to.

Also, my digital camera (FujiFilm S700, cheap, but has good reviews), "should" be here on the 7th and i can get some photos of my own snakes as well as what i find on my nearly every weekend camping/hiking.

Again, once i get the disposable camera's pics developed i'll compare more details and see if i can come to a positive id.

Coachwhips in TN are restricted to the Mississippi border counties, about 100 miles south of LBL. There are also some isolated populations in southern Kentucky, but well to the east of LBL.

My boss (Floyd Scott) is the author of the upcoming Tennessee Reptile Atlas, and I've been helping with the data sorting and map creation; I also curate the largest herp collection in Tennessee. My boss and another of my mentors, the late Dave Snyder, conducted thorough herp surveys in LBL in the late 60's and continued herpetological collecting in the area up to the present, and I'm quite familiar with their works and collections. I also have done a good bit of herping in the area myself; I'm from Montgomery County, just to the southeast of LBL, so this is my stomping grounds. Just so you don't think I'm making stuff up!

At any rate, without a photo I doubt we'll be able to get much closer. Our ratsnakes here are usually pretty strongly patterned dorsally, but even the duller individuals have strongly patterned venters, so that's out. Hognoses come in chocolate brown, among several other color phases, but I imagine you would have recognized a hog. There are copperbelly watersnakes on the Cumberland side of LBL, but not near Piney; they are usually plain brown above, but the venter would be red or orange, not cream.

I'm inclined to call it a racer, especially if it closely resembles the coachwhip above; they have a pretty overall look. Some individuals here are grayish or brownish rather than jet black.

Ah, didn't see your kingsnake question. That area has intergrades between the eastern black and the speckled king; you have to go down near Memphis to get pure speckleds. However, some individuals in the area, especially west of the Tennessee River, will be heavily marked like a speckled king. I can't think of any places out that way with concentrations of kingsnakes; I usually just see them on the road here and there. There are some places along US 79 in Paris where a lot of fill has been removed, which are starting to grow up; there are lots of big peices of limestone and assorted trash in these. I've always thought they looked like good kingsnake spots, but I haven't collected at any of them.

Sorry I couldn't be more help. Good luck!

What is the temperment of the snake? Coachwhips are have a very "distinct" personality. The only snake that acts similar is the racer.

Did it rattle its tail? Hiss? Strike with its mouth open? Strike at your face? Was it fast? Did it climb up anything?

Hello again--
Speckled kings are found around Shelby County. Last summer I found one under a vending machine near a public park in Memphis!
I herp along the river off of Bird Song Road, up into Camden following Hwy. 69-A into Big Sandy. Lots of BIG black rat snakes, black and silver corn snakes, and a few black king snakes every now and again.

One of my favorite places to look for herps is Natchez Trace State Park (Caroll Co.)--great camping as well. Once it gets warm, it gets snakey--especially around the lakes. I was pretty excited to find a pygmey rattler there two summers ago on one of the more isolated wooded trails. Some interesting looking pine snakes in that area as well.

rgds,
althea

Hey Althea- next time you run across a pine or pygmy in TN, please take a picture and send it to one of the universities with a herp collection! Those two species are very poorly documented in the state.

I haven't been out there in years, but back in the early 90's I found a pygmy at Nathan Bedford Forest on a trail not far from that museum that overlooks the river.

I generally go on a camping/observation trip every other weekend to some place in middle or west Tennessee. I'm now planning a trip for next weekend to Shelby County to see what i can turn up, and since i have a digital camera now, i'll be able to get better pics. Supposed to rain friday and sunday, so i may get to take a day trip Saturday, probably to Camden now that you reminded me about that pygmy in NBF.

The disposable camera photos of the snake in question in my original post turned out to look like anything from a garter snake to a python... pretty much you can tell is it's a dark colored snake, but it's just a blur, so not worth getting it scanned and on the computer.

Hey, while you're in Shelby County, keep an eye (and ear) out for Southern Toads! There's a single record from the Mississippi portion of Mud or Horn Lake (can't remember which just now), but the species has never been documented in Tennessee. That would be a nice record!

Gators are moving into Memphis, so watch out if you get down in the swamps.

possibly a Nerodia (water snake)
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Capitol Breeders is:
http://www.freewebs.com/capitolbreeders/index.htm

I don't know all the Nerodia species from that area but don't they usually have patterned bellies?

Yep. There are three Nerodia in LBL: diamondbacks, midlands, and copperbellies. The first two have venters strongly patterned with dark crescents; the copperbelly has a vivid orange and black venter.