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I have a gravid female who had her pre-lay shed 12 days ago but hasn't laid yet. My worry is that she is suddenly losing weight - it's very noticeable around her neck, which has gotten extremely thin over the past few days. I bred her a few years ago, but I don't recall her losing weight as quickly as this at this point in her pregnancy. She has a nest box (though is hardly interested in it) and is extremely active at the minute looking for a lay site, I presume. Is there any explanation for the sudden weight loss or is it due to her activity levels?

If she is actually gravid this is normal behavior. Can you feel eggs in her or is she thin all the way down? When they get ready to lay - the eggs appear to drop down near the vent. You should be able to easily count each egg through your fingers at this point.

My advice: take the water dish out and leave her alone for 6 hours at a time. She'll settle down and lay the eggs in the egg box if she is indeed gravid.

Good luck.
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ECC
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Home of TEAM ECC
It's an Inner Circle thing... you wouldn't understand...

It is normal for her to loose weight before she lays. The final growth and shelling of the eggs takes a lot from her. some peope even think that when a female starts looking thin it will mean she will have a larger/healthier clutch. I don't know about that but...

However I don't agree about removing the water bowl.

you don't know exactly how close to laying she is and dehydrating a snake before she tries to lay her eggs is just asking for trouble. Many people feel that the main cause of egg binding is dehydration.

Personally I think that the main reason for both egg binding and laying eggs in the water dish is not having an appropriate place to lay eggs.

Tell us about your nesting box if you would.

It should be dark (solid sides) and full to the top with a moist laying medium like sphagnum moss.

Thanks for the replies. If the weight loss is normal for this time then I'm not so concerned about that. However today is day 14 from when she shed, so I'm starting to worry more that she hasn't laid.

The nest box is a large tupperware-style tub, which I have blackened out on all sides with dark material. I have cut a 2in wide hole in the lid so she can enter/exit via the top of the box rather than through a side. There's approx 1cm of damp vermiculite at the bottom and moist moss on top of that. It's so full of moss in fact that she's dragging it all out and around the viv! Previously I had her regular hide in with her as well, but have removed that and only given her the nest box for now. Her water dish is fairly small - approx 3-4in diameter - as I was worried she would lay in anything bigger. She always has access to drinking water.

She is going in and out of her nest box more now than when I orginally posted, but I'd be happier if she just stayed in it and laid!

She's around 8 years old, I've owned her for 5 years and this will be her 2nd breeding to my knowledge.

Hey Squidgy ---

I would indeed take that water dish out. I have had snakes go and lay eggs in the water dish and that will kill them.

Good luck.
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ECC
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Home of TEAM ECC
It's an Inner Circle thing... you wouldn't understand...

If you are nervous about it why not just use a bowl that is too small to lay eggs in?

How do you decide when to remove it? Sometimes my snakes lay 6 days post shed, sometimes 2 weeks, and occasionally they don't even have a prelay shed. Some of them circle and pace the cage and others never leave the nest box.

It just seems like if you misjudge how close she is to laying you could cut off water for a long time.

i totally agree, to remove availible drinking water from a gravid (any) snake is not only unusal its cruel imho. to the OP one of the biggest problems with egg binding is in fact dehydration. best of luck.
,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I stand by my previous comment.

Leave the water dish in there at your own peril. You can always take the snake and offer it water on a daily basis. Hold the tip of the snakes nose in the water dish - if it's hungry it'll drink.

Snakes don't always have daily access to water in the wild anyway - and a gravid female that has crawled into a rotten log or a sawdust/ mulch pile in anticipation of oviposition does not drink for a few days either, I would suspect.
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ECC
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Home of TEAM ECC
It's an Inner Circle thing... you wouldn't understand...

I remove the water bowls since I a mexican hog lay in her water bowl last year and I lost every egg. Her nest box was also available and it's the same type of nest box all of my other corns, kings and hogs laid in.

Now I just offer them water every 3-4 days until they lay. I just hold their heads to the surface of the water and they drink. Once they stop drinking I replace them in their bins.

I just think, "why take the chance if you do not have to?"

If you are concerned, why not just use a bowl that is too small to lay eggs in?

Because it's just not needed and I've never had any problems with giving them a drink once or twice a week. There are some people here, Blurosy I believe, that use this as standard practice for all of their snakes year round.

water bowls ARE needed!
what about soaks? do your snakes ever get to curlup and soak?
stress is also associated w/egg binding, do you think taking a gravid snake out of its enclosure to offer it a drink is not stressfull? like zach said you can always just put in a small bowl that they cant lay in if your worried but to deprive them of water all together until you decide if they are thirsty or not is just sad imho,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

You need to read my post again......

My snakes have water bowls year round except for females getting close to laying............

I said SOME PEOPLE here only offer water to there snakes once or twice a week........I remember this form a dirty water bowl post.

Stress may be a factor in egg binding but since I have not had this problem with my females I can't speak to that.

You need to read my post again......
no i dont.

My snakes have water bowls year round except for females getting close to laying............
so you remove water from gravid females imho thats when they need it most, and it is sad yours chose to lay in her waterbowl last year she must have hated the laybox offered incidents like this come down to husbandry/conditions plain&simple.

I said SOME PEOPLE here only offer water to there snakes once or twice a week........I remember this form a dirty water bowl post.
yes i know many who do this i do not. i keep my water bowls clean and availible at ALL times. for roaming gravid females i use a small bowl that they couldnt lay their eggs in simple solution.

Stress may be a factor in egg binding but since I have not had this problem with my females I can't speak to that........
captivity is stressfull. its our duties as keepers to supply proper conditions for them to live/thrive. you either care/listen/learn and provide those conditions or you dont. that female choosing to lay her eggs in a waterbowl was her trying to tell you something, i can guarentee you it was NOT trying to say hey remove my access to water all together as i approach laying these eggs. sadly you just didnt listen to her and now dole out water as you see fit which is just horrible imho, best of luck with your snakes.
,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Stress may be a factor in egg binding but since I have not had this problem with my females I can't speak to that........
captivity is stressfull. its our duties as keepers to supply proper conditions for them to live/thrive. you either care/listen/learn and provide those conditions or you dont. that female choosing to lay her eggs in a waterbowl was her trying to tell you something, i can guarentee you it was NOT trying to say hey remove my access to water all together as i approach laying these eggs. sadly you just didnt listen to her and now dole out water as you see fit which is just horrible imho, best of luck with your snakes.

UMMM ok, all seeing swammy of the tall grass..........

No she laid eggs in her water bowl because it was my first time breeding mexican hogs.........

She took longer than normal to lay........her posterior swelling went WAY down............other more experienced keepers on the hog forum advised she probably reabsorbed the eggs.............I took her nest box out..............oooopps everyone was wrong............so since she didnt have a nest box she laid in the water..........why the hell am I telling YOU this........?

From a former post by Rainer:

The main reason I don't keep water in with the snakes 24/7 (whether it is disposable cups or not) is the bowls cause problems if left in all week. Snakes get flagellates and transfer deseases through water bowls more than any other method.

I learned this method of once a week waterfrom the late Lloyd Lemke and stuck with it. The only times I leave water in is with gravid females and neonates. The neonates i use disposable dishes that fit into the trays and can't be turned over.

I don't have a pic with the water bowls in the neonate cages but this is the type of tray I use for my hatchlings. It is long and narrow. I use disposable cups that squeeze into the sides perfectly so that the snakes can't overturn them.

Off topic but how is is for a big brooks king egg..?:

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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Why not chastise him as well along with Mr. Lemke......

roflmao, notice he says the only time he leaves the bowls in are for gravids and neos !!! lol thanks for pointing that out kinda re-enforces what i was trying to say...
water is impt. for gravids and they should not be without it.
and i wasnt "chastising" you. its really sad you took it that way, must be an "inner circle" thing... very sad indeed.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I take waterbowls out mostly for the same reason.
I lost a clutch years ago the same way. It happens.

It's not cruel.

At all.

Chris

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"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

Husbandry is so interesting, how we all try something a little different to achieve the best results...

I agree with Thomas, that stress and dehydration are probably some leading causes for dystocia or poor egg laying choices. I usually leave my water bowls in with out problems. As long as there is sufficient humidity and the female isn't losing moisture ( excessively warm/ dry enclosure) I am sure she can do well with water offered once a week. There isn't always standing water available in the wild, but I bet there is a lot of condensation available early in the morning. Gently spray your female with some luke warm water and I bet she will drink some that accumulates on her scales. Geez, there are some desert animals that never drink water...

within and across species/ subspecies, I have seen many that will accept the same nest box, and then there are those that have to be different. I have had some kings that would wander and wander until I offered them a different material in their nest box or put it in a different spot in their cage. Then bang, eggs in a day. Knowing your girls, taking notes and watching behavior will make for successful egg laying. Following a recipe doesn't always work. I guess everyone should do what works for their girls and then disagree with everyone else,lol...

my $0.035

daveb

Posted by: wisema2297 at Thu May 8 16:24:23 2008 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I remove the water bowls since I a mexican hog lay in her water bowl last year and I lost every egg. Her nest box was also available and it's the same type of nest box all of my other corns, kings and hogs laid in.

Now I just offer them water every 3-4 days until they lay. I just hold their heads to the surface of the water and they drink. Once they stop drinking I replace them in their bins.

I just think, "why take the chance if you do not have to?"

you took the box out??? you left the box in???
its no wonder she chose to kill her own eggs... very sad...
well just chalk it up as a lesson to remove the water bowl when she is due to lay roflmao
OR better yet provide better conditions and perhaps a smaller water bowl which leads us back to the OP
LEAVE GRAVID SNAKES ACCESS TO WATER AT ALL TIMES IF WORRIED PROVIDE A SMALLER BOWL.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Nest box was removed..........you still havnt addressed the offering water once a week.........any comments.........my snakes get water while gravid.....I give it to them personally.........I take the time to sit and watch each one drink until they have had their fill..........if it stressed them then they wouldn't drink..........all of mine drink, they do not act flighty, the crawl towards me when I open the cage........I also believe gravid kings (or corns....) tend to stay in one place when close to laying (clsoed, confined, dark, hard to access........bet you will never hear of anyone finding gravid snakes in water in the wild........maybe they drink water from due in the morning............mine drink water from a bowl I give them 2-3 times a week when gravid.

Sorry if I find that hard to believe but usually how a man keeps his house is pretty close to how he lives his life.......I've seen the pics.......and you say me offering my gravid snakes water 2-3 days a week is sad?

so you removed the nest box leaving her no choice but to lay in her water bowl well...i suppose removing the water bowl all together and only offering water as you see fit is your fix to that problem, lol well good luck w/that! and of course your snakes come out when you open their enclosures? hello?!?!? they are thirsty!
i leave water bowls in my enclosures 24/7 but there certainly is more than one way to do it... i guess????
,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Don't you have anything better to do?

Clean up your back yard.
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ECC
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Home of TEAM ECC
It's an Inner Circle thing... you wouldn't understand...

Are you really that stupid or is it my friendship with Peter Jolles that has you blind with hate. Or do you just conveiniently skip past the part about where everyone believed she had reabsorbed her eggs and THAT is why the nest box was taken out........

DO everyone a favor. Stop trying to sound like FR with the "listen to what your snake is telling you". From him it makes sense. From you it sounds like a child trying to imitate his father. From Frank it is "Grammy" from you it is bad karaoke.

it has nothing to do w/you or peter it has everything to do w/the snakes. its pretty sad you cant tell when a snake is gravid and i guess thats why your sore, shoot i would be to. next time pay attention and leave the nest box in and get a smaller water bowl. thanks for the FR comparison its flattering
,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Trust me Thomas the comparison was done to show how far off you are and rediculous you sound trying to sound like him. Be yourself!! Stop putting so much effort into being an ass. That's why so many people here dislike you!

We have a winner!

Thomas --- I was offering an opinion about taking the water dish out of a gravid snake's cage.

There was no need to write that my method was cruel and irresponsible.

Please stop harassing me --- I just want to participate in here in peace.

By the way - Ralph is the nicest guy you would ever meet. He could get along with anyone (guys that are in law enforcement with forearms like Popeye... like Ralph - usually are). You are picking a fight with the wrong herper.
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ECC
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Home of TEAM ECC
It's an Inner Circle thing... you wouldn't understand...

Ya can tell it's spring...breeders "marketing" themselves.. getting their names out "there" by starting flame wars..LOL. I mean, really, criticizing a persons yard from a pic about a totally different subject, is a tad off base, but makes a GREAT read. Glad I got to it before it gets deleted. keep posting guys, the entertainment is priceless.
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Richard Evans

no not THAT one

Richard, I am not selling or marketing anything. Quite the contrary.

Concerning the back yard pic? I think it points to an overall pattern of behavior, lifestyle,... perhaps even animal husbandry, etc. For instance - some hiring managers make sure to look in a person's car when they come for an interview.

Finally, I just came here to offer my help.

Later,
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ECC
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Home of TEAM ECC
It's an Inner Circle thing... you wouldn't understand...

>>
>> some hiring managers make sure to look in a person's car when they come for an interview.

we have a winner boy you try to be funnny. there is no winner or loser pete just snakes,and advise take it or leave it. i suppose ralph is wisema pretty funny most badges i know dont hide behind a screen name. its a shame he couldnt tell he had a gravid snake that laid her eggs in her water bowl, maybe next time he will listen to his snakes and advise on the proper way to do it.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Well I sure as hell can't hide in the grass in MY yard....Hiding? Yeah thats exactly why I chose that screen name. I saw your intimidating picture and figured I should remain in the shadows.

Got anymore fake rodent repellent for sell?

hide in the grass yeah thats a good oneis that all you can keep going to is my yard? fyi its mowed now ill get some new pics up for you, i just find it funny when folks hide behind a screen name makes me wonder what else they are hiding. me im straight up what you see is what you get i dont hide behind anything as i have nothing to hide. if youve learned anything from this pointless thread i hope for your snakes sake its how important water is esp. for gravid snakes well that and nest boxes
roflmao
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Did you remove the old kiddie pool and the Safeway cart from your yard also???? Or did you just mow around those items?
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ECC
www.

Home of TEAM ECC
It's an Inner Circle thing... you wouldn't understand...

just checking out your link there... is this going to be a relink to Keith's old e king resource site?
thanks, and carry on, lol.

daveb
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vote in '08
chris cornell for van halen lead singer...

Dave,

LOL --- I am done with this post.

Yeah - I have Keith's entire site backed up on my hard drive. He gave it to me to put up and expand.

I am not a web developer and have nothing but Microsoft Frontpage so it will not be as glittery as it was when he had it up --- but it will be the same type of thing.
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ECC
www.

Home of TEAM ECC
It's an Inner Circle thing... you wouldn't understand...

You're a sad sad man Thomas. I almost feel sorry for you.

Dudes, everyone needs to chill a second.

You had one snake lay in the water bowl just one time and it was directly due to your inexperience. You took the advise of someone and you took the laying box out and that resulted in a dead clutch. It happens - everyone here has messed up before.

But seriously, now that you know (hopefully) when your snakes will lay, just make sure that you have a nest box in their. Simple.

You can argue all you want that it doesn't do any harm to just offer water once a week (or is it 3 times?? haha) but ultimately that is you telling your snake when to drink...sorry man...thats just one of those decisions thats best left up to them. Maybe some people get away with it but most people who breed snakes offer water at all times.

I want to hear a single example of someone who provided a truly proper nest box and had the female lay in the water anyway. Peter?? Anyone??

Lastly I want to hear from anyone who has both eggs laid in water, and an eggbound female. Which happens more often...hmmm...I bet I can guess.

I can see your point and have no problem with people disagreeing with me at all. That's what these forums are for.

It's when a known smart ass starts running his mouth that gets my goat. I can almost guarantee he wouldn't have a pair big enough to start in like that if this conversation started up in a face to face meeting so, I know so, why should this get to me?

I'm with you on that one Zach. I do the same thing if it's a female I worry about. Randy

She'd been in the nest box since last night so I had a peek earlier and she was laying, suffice to say I'm greatly relieved!The eggs don't look too promising, they're very yellow, but I'm not worried about that as long as my female is ok.

Just as a side note, I left a water dish in - albeit a small one just incase - and I'm kinda glad I did, as I seen her drinking yesterday afternoon before she disappeared into the nest box.

Thanks so much for all of your help everyone!