Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I recently heard that a couple of specimens of Willard's Rattlesnakes have been found North of Interstate 10 in New Mexico. Has anyone heard anything about this new location and
who found them?

Was it the best idea (for the animals) to post this on a public forum?

Why would you want to draw that kind of attention to a new population of willardi?

I apologize in advance for the lecture, because folks will find them eventually anyway, but in this instance it took over 25 years for the secret to get out.

this subject should be public info IMO.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

well said joe!

Contradicting? LOL I am sure you meant
"This info shouldn't be public info" I always enjoy hearing of range extension but I don't know the history of this species or the secret you spoke of so I cant really comment on it.
Foot Hill Reptiles

>>Contradicting? LOL I am sure you meant
>>"This info shouldn't be public info"

That exactly what I meant, thanks
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

Joe where is the problem with posting that info in this forum i thought that this was what this forum was all about its not like he gave a exact location n of i-10 takes in a lot of country

>>Joe where is the problem with posting that info in this forum i thought that this was what this forum was all about its not like he gave a exact location n of i-10 takes in a lot of country

My opinion is that anything more specific has the potential to be devastating to the population in question.

Thats all I'm getting at.

Forks
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

Thanks fedupdon. I appreciate your comment.

As for everyone else:

The information I have is third party. It seems that a guy
named Ed who recently moved to N.M. found two specimens N. of
Interstate 10 at high altitude. That's all the info I have. I made another call to the person I first spoke to(who is a close friend of the "collector"and he confirmed that it was true but the "collector" is not giving up the location. Supposedly he has seen photos of the animals and is sending copies to me. If the "collector" wishes to share those photos and any other information with anyone that will be his business.

Well, if this "Ed" actually collected two willardi anywhere in New Mexico, I would think that he would not be telling your friend or anyone else about them. Seems there is the little matter of New Mexico willardi being an endangered species under New Mexico law as well as being listed as a threatened species by the Feds. Finding them, observing and photographing them is one thing and he could get by with "talking" about what he found....but if he was a "collector" and actually "collected" those animals, I doubt seriously he is talking about it...unless he is an idiot.
-----
Gerald Keown
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
www.southwesternherp.com

Well said. I have a question, though. Is the ssp. in question C. w. willardi, or C. w. obscurus? I know obscurus is well documented and protected in NM, but I hadn't heard of the nominate form being there. If that is the case, is it protected under NM law?
-----
Diego

Diego there are no C. w. willardi in NM.......

I thought so. Just wanted to be clear on what the poster was talking about.

Thanks.
-----
Diego

Frankly, the problem is that the people who know how to find willardi do not need specific locality. All they need is incentive and you can't control who reads these forums. I have seen zonata spots here in CA that get found after just general info such as the county, was posted.
I am sure the original poster meant no harm but I think with highly sought after herps you just need to be extra careful and it's always better to be too careful and not take any chances.

aaron, joe, gerold, all i can say is they (the other posters) just dont get it.

Then why have this forum at all if everyone is so worried about a few people that might over collect. I think that we should be far more concerned with the way the states are treating our hobby

I agree with you in part. There are certainly problems with how this hobby is treated and it is unfortunate.

However, there will always be gray areas regarding what should and should not be discussed an an open forum. Talking about something like this privately with several friends is better than talking about it here. Sure, it will get around, but it IS different.

I agree we need to be concerned about our freedoms as hobbyists but there is no reason why one issue should preclude the other. Ideally we should be concerned about both.

1. as it stands, if there are folks "in the know" it actually makes it easier for those "in the know" to poach from this "unknown" "top secret" locale, especially if its not watched at all by LE . . . now if LE knows about it, that's and are making the call NOT to publish, then that's another story

2. the sci lit requires at least a little scholarship to dig through

3. one of the purposes of science is to disseminate knowledge

4. These pops of these snakes are already federal T&E, so what more protection do they need?

FWIW - at this rate, we'll all be birdwatchers (herp watchers) within the next 20 years if we're not careful . . . why is it that with deer poaching, many folks are quick to call "Operation Game Thief" but with herp poaching - and I don't necessarily mean violations of things like the stupid TX road cruising law but things like illegally collecting T&E - people keep their mouths shut or condemn those who call?

We need to clean up our hobby if we are going to be able to keep it.

Troy

Troy,
I hope you are not suggesting we should self publish every bit of new locality knowledge on the internet? I don't think so, but it sounded a bit like it.

Everything gets published in due time, if not by those in the know, then by the Feds in the case of willardi.

Our gray area here could be a whole lot grayer with almost any species other than NM willardi. This is an ESA species if there ever was one.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

I would add that waiting until such sensitve info is published in a real scientific journal presumably give the authorities a better chance to prepare a plan for protecting them.

I don't think Troy is advocating "Internet Literature"... but other science publications are out there that the average hobbyist will NEVER pay attention to.

Is 25 years "due time"?

Geez, this thing is crazy. We heard "rumours" about this locality about 10 years ago...

Happy herpin'...

MP

>>Is 25 years "due time"?

It's not my deal to publish, so what you want me to say? I believe I tried to get someone to investigate long ago and they shrugged it off.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

Joe,

I don't think we should self-publish new locale records on the internet, but rather that any new distributional records ought to be published in SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE.

Take your Marathon barking frog . . . without publication or preservation of such a specimen, its just an interesting anecdotal record (much like the 9 mi Sanderson Coluber) - with publication, it contributes to our knowledge and understanding to the species.

Troy

chalk it up to poor reading skills late at night.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

"why is it that with deer poaching, many folks are quick to call "Operation Game Thief" but with herp poaching - and I don't necessarily mean violations of things like the stupid TX road cruising law but things like illegally collecting T&E - people keep their mouths shut or condemn those who call?"

>>>Part of the answer is that there is a strong "us vs. them" mentality on both sides of the fence. I am not saying it is right but stupid laws like the all out ban on roadhunting in Texas tend to foster this attitude among private herpers. If you have 99 baseless and unfounded laws for every legitamate one then you are alot less likely to get cooperation from the hobbyists. In the case of the Texas roadban there was actually many hobbyists saying, yes let's protect turtles, lets protect T&E but give us reasonable laws on the common stuff. But TPWD had no desire whatsoever to address any of our concerns. Instead we got lies and sneaky tactics, plus you can still commercial collect many possible sensitive turtles, even trap them, so long as you do it on private property.

"We need to clean up our hobby if we are going to be able to keep it."

>>>I totally agree but it is a two way street. Wildlife agencies need to treat our group fairly and give us the same attention and respect they do other hobbyists and sportsmen and then they will see that there are alot of us in the hobby that will do the right thing when the opportunity arises. Lastly, I would definately "drop a dime" on anybody I saw wantonly wrecking habitat, collecting in a park or collecting truely at risk species like Gopher Torts, Indigos, willardi, Todos Santos Mtn. Kings and a whole bunch of other species that really need our help but there is little chance I am going to call on somebody who collects a suboc or grayband off a road that has 100 square miles of untouched habitat in every direction. In fact a good friend of mine just told me last night that one of his buddies in AZ just assisted in catching two guys poaching Willard's in AZ and we both approved.

how would you approve of that? you're ideas of what needs protection seem a little messed up, IMO.

JJ

I think he approves of the "assisting in the catching" of the two guys poaching, not of them actually poaching. At least that's how I read it.

Right...which is a little messed up. I can't think of a good reason to consider willardi willardi an at-risk species.

-JJ

Jason I have to admit I have no personal experience, in fact even very little second hand, or "anecdotal" info with C. w. willardi. I could very well be wrong and I admit that.