Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I think!

We bred a pastel male that I picked up from my brother who wasn't able to handle him, and a normal female that I got as an adult from a pet shop for $100. We got 13 slugs, 2 stillborn (conjoined twins), 3 severely kinked tails (I had to cull them, they were horrible)...I was feeling terrible, and then..... I saw an albino. Turns out my normal pet shop snakes are 100% hets!

The albino has a knot in its umbilical cord and it is not absorbing its yolk....some advice please...I tried untying it, but the yolk is too big. Help!

Here are some pics...Mom is doing well, although she is grumpy as ever. I will have more pictures once the babies are cleaned up.




Deformed:

Conjoined:

These guys are totally going to be preserved for my high school class! Weird.

I think that the defects may be a result of fluctuating temps. I have had her in a Vision for the last few months with a heat pad, but I do not have the pad hooked up to a thermostat. That's my guess. Anyone have any other ideas to what may have caused all of the defects?

Thanks for listening to my rambling...it is 3 a.m. and I am a bit stir crazy!
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Thanks,
Amy
My Boids

Please don't be offended, but when I saw your post "Hit the jackpot" I was excited to take a look. After reading and seeing about the litter, I would say you far from "hit the jackpot". Slugs & deformities are tough on most breeders, it appears that's ok with you because of one albino. I'll even give you that, you where excited about the gestation and the big day. But then to find out that you didn't take the time or money to control the environment properly for mom, sorry I just cant figure that one out.
Sorry for the negativity on this one, but next year if you pair her up again, take the time to do it right.
Oh by the way, congrats on the albino.

Ralph

Congrats on the Albino and the $100 Het! You need to tie off the umbilical cord. Take some string and tie a tight knot as close to the body as you can get. This will prevent bleeding from the umbilical cord when you cut it. After tying that knot, cut the cord. That's it.

Congrats and one very strange pair of babies you have there. Iv'e never seen anything quite like it.
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Boaphile Home
All Original/Boaphile Plastics
The Boa Network

You posted at the same time I was off on my tangent (see my other post...)

It's been a long night! I will tie off that sac, and keep you guys updated! The conjoined twins will be a huge hit at my school. I may be the coolest science teacher ever after today!

I really appreciate your advice!
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Thanks,
Amy
My Boids

That's where that came in (see previous post..its the first thing I said).

I was so excited to see that someone had posted...I wish I could have had some help though with the albino! Hint, Hint...When someone asks a question, especially if you feel that something went wrong, it is better to explain how to improve, then to degrade the poster (especially when they have already been through a lot of stress).

Trust me, I am not happy to have the slugs and kinks, etc. Monitoring the temps in the cage was something I did on a daily basis, however, with the results I had, I assume that there was a problem and I will have a thermostat on the heat source in the future. We just moved the animals a couple months ago to a new room, and we are low on outlets, as a result none of my 4 x 2s heat pads are hooked up to thermostats.

I am hopeful the little albino will make it, and if anyone has any thoughts on how to handle a knot in the cord let me know!
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Thanks,
Amy
My Boids

Thermostats do not require extra outlets, in fact given their multiple inputs often reduce the number of wall outlets needed for heat sources.

You do want to tie of and cut the sac, however, make sure to keep an eye on it. You do not want the string to get pulled up into the body!

Please get your snakes the proper thermostats. Their care should come first, and if it is a money issue then I would have to question why they were bred in the first place as now you have more babies to setup in their own cages with thermostats. Sorry for coming off blunt, but I didn't see another way to put it. I wish you the best with the live babies. And while temperature fluctuations may have caused the kinks and deformities there may be something else, possibly genetic. I would re-consider re-pairing the parents again.
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

Definetly will take your advice to heart. I have thermostats set to all of my racks, but the heat pads for each of the 4 x 2's are plugged into a strip that also controls the humidifier and the heat lamps for the lizards. If I were to plug those into the thermostat (which I have extras), they would all shut off when the heat pad temperatures reached their peak...aka why there is no thermostat on the 4 x 2's. We've had an electrician over to evaluate our needs, and hopefully he will return in the near future to install our new outlets.

Money is not an issue for me, I have invested well over $10,000 over the last five years, and all profits I have acquired from my animals go back into the hobby. As I mentioned in some of my other posts, we just built a room for the snakes, and my disorganization on that level likely caused a problem with the litter, but it has nothing to do with my willingness or ability to care for my animals. They always come first, and I do not knowingly skimp. I do regret that I didn't recognize the situation was more severe prior to the birth of the babies, and I will certainly learn from my mistakes.

Again, I appreciate your input!
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Thanks,
Amy
My Boids

Thanks for the clarity. I'm glad this was able to remain civil.

Have a great day, and best of luck with the 17 new babies!
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

IMO you've responded very well to a wide range of replies, from congrats on the albino to you aren't taking proper care of your animals.

Many people now have the benefit of many others blazing the trail and finding out what to do and how to keep these pets. I for one used light bulbs and dimmer switches for my BRB's for MANY years. Was it optimal - nope, did it work - yup!!!

Sounds like your doing quite well to not only figure out what you need to do but willing to put yourself out there and take the shots in the quest for knowledge.

For the less than perfect results on the litter, nobody will ever be able to say exactly why it came out the way it did. Could have to do with your smaller heat spot, could be less than perfect temp controls, could simply be schtuff happens. Ask any experienced breeder and they will tell you, some litters slug out. Some pairings don't work so well together. I'd try it again with the pair but I would also be prepared for the possibility that these two are simply not compatable.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Dittos! Amy, good on you; this could have turned into high-drama fast. You kept it cool. I'll second that, "Bravo!"

~Rebecca

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1.0.0 Dumeril's Boa '04
1.1.1 Ball Pythons
[1.0.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1.0 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

That's awesome!
Not just one, but TWO "hidden" hets?
Congrats!
I can believe it though, a lot of people wholesale hets and possible hets as normals.
I hope that albino pulls through for you!
Aaron

Thanks...I have a feeling I'll be posting a lot on my own thread!

Here are some of the normals, btw none of the normals had any problems with the yolk like the albino. They are nice sized too! I love that some already have lots of pink like Dad, and I can't wait until the first shed.

Thanks for looking! You guys are the best!
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Thanks,
Amy
My Boids

Amy, Congratulations on the hidden hets!

Since you said you wrote this when you were a little wired at 3am, I'll just say that you didn't actually post any numbers other than your one albino and the defected sibs & slugs. It made it sound as if you didn't get any healthy babies, which your second batch of pictures show that you did. (...might have been a lot of what was behind that first response you got too)

So how many healthy babies did you get?

Take care!
~Rebecca
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1.0.0 Dumeril's Boa '04
1.1.1 Ball Pythons
[1.0.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1.0 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

You are very right...oops! I put in a pic of a normal healthy baby, but forgot to mention that not all were deformed!

The numbers are:
16-66% Hets.
1- Albino
3- Severly Kinked
13-Slugs
1 set of conjoined twins-stillborn

So that is 17 healthy and 17 slugs/deformed...I really wish that I would have had more healthy, but I am happy that I found out that I have hets. and that all surviving babies are doing very well so far!

I am going on about 3 hours of sleep, and so I apologize for my stupidness! Now I need to grab some coffee, or the kids will have a field day with me! Thank goodness it is Friday!
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Thanks,
Amy
My Boids

It absolutely was the reason for the reasponse. I thought none had made it except for the albino!! That's why I couldn't believe that one albino makes up for all the dead and deformed babies. Sorry, I should take some time before I react.
Congrats on all the healthy babies.

Ralph

That there are a-lot of Poss hets out there floating around! I know I sell all my het males to one specific person who later sells them out as normal pet store boas! This kind of occurance is going to become more common! I remember a time when you couldn't buy a normal burm that wasn't at least heterozygous for albinism! Probably still holds true today! Congrats on the albino now the mystery, is it a Sharp or a Orignal strain albino!HMMMMMMM.

Al Brown/Brown's Boas

>>That there are a-lot of Poss hets out there floating around! I know I sell all my het males to one specific person who later sells them out as normal pet store boas! This kind of occurance is going to become more common! I remember a time when you couldn't buy a normal burm that wasn't at least heterozygous for albinism! Probably still holds true today! Congrats on the albino now the mystery, is it a Sharp or a Orignal strain albino!HMMMMMMM.

I was going to say the same thing, I sell my Het's locally as Normal's, cause really who cares....

I do however when I sell on KS or when I sell to a pets store inform them of the genetic potential. It's not my concern if that info gets passed on to the consumer.

Sorry about the litter, but congrats with the Albino...
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Jeremy Payne
Owner
JB Reptile
www.jbreptile.com **Coming Soon**
Questions or Comments, Contact Me

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

0.1 Snow "Khal" RTB
1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.0 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0.1 Child

Ah...the coffee woke me up slightly.....and the kids are loving the twins. Most of my students were not aware that there can be conjoined twins in snakes.

Anyways, I have been working with ball pythons and sand boas for awhile now, but this litter was my first larger boid attempt. I have had barely any sleep last night, and all morning I've been trying to figure out what went wrong exactly. Obviously, since there wasn't a thermostat set up the temperatures had more room for fluctuations, but I was pretty dilligent about temp gunning her often, and I never noticed a major swing. Here is my current thought....since we had literally half the litter healthy and half the litter either slug out or deformed, could it be possible that she didn't have enough of a hot spot? I was using a 17 x 11 heat mat, but what if some of the babies just didn't get on the heat? Is this a possibility? I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner!

For Future Reference: Do most of you use belly heat? In my AP and Vision racks I have heat rope stretching across the whole back of the tank, but in the 4 x 2's I couldn't figure out a way to use the heat rope, so I stuck with heat pads. I think I'm going to upgrade my Visions to Boaphiles or AP this year, and hopefully that will solve my problem.

Thanks again for all of you following my constant ramblings on this thread!
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Thanks,
Amy
My Boids

I went out and bought the big ultratherm heat pads for my 4 foot visions and didnt like how uneven the hot spot was(100-90) directly above the heat. I bought radiant heat panels from pro products and it works perfectly. Yea the cages are expensive and so was the heat but atleast they will last a long time and work well. congrats by the way on the litter

Ectothermic animals tend to stay one temperature unless basking or thermoregulating, meaning temperature wasn't what you need to be looking at unless you had major fluctuations. I wouldn't concern yourself over it unless the problem repeats itself in subsequent litters.

I don't believe heat or temps was the problem
at all.I think it was bad genetics or just
unfortunate.Your saying heating pads,are these
reptile products or actual human heating pads?
Human heating pads for most brands have very
steady heat.Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

Congratulations on the Albino and 16
colorful pos hets! Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I will keep you all updated on the progress of the babies! I really think that it is great that we have this forum, and it is so nice to learn from all of you. I really do appreciate all replies, positive or negative. Although, we may sometimes have different opinions, we are all here because we love the hobby.

I will follow the suggestions several of you gave me in regards to heat, and I hope that I won't have the kinks/deformities/slugs in the future. I will probably try this pair again, but not this upcoming season, as I like to give my girls a season off if possible. Hopefully, they are not predisposed to producing kinked babies.

Again, have a great weekend!
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Thanks,
Amy
My Boids

Is what your science class boa looks like to me. Nice snakess that made it.