Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just making a list......please add to it if I missed any

When bred to a normal:

Bumblebee makes Pastel, Spider, Bumblebee, Normal
Pewter makes Pastel, Cinny (or Black Pastel), Pewter, Normal

any others?

Thanks!!

n/p

Spinner, spinner blast, cinna bee, pastave

Any double visual dominant animal has the ability/potential to reproduce itself bred to a normal, just like any single dominant visual would.

Does that mean that a Lesser X Mojave Lucey will produce.....Lessers, Mojaves, Luceys and normals if its mated to a normal?
I was under the impression that this didnt work?
I could be wrong......i often am!

It all comes down to the relationship between the two recognized co-dominant morphs being combined.

In the case of pewter and bumblebee it appears that the combination is of mutations of different genes, quite possibly not even on the same chromosome. Because of this when say a pewter male breeds a normal there is no relationship between the pastel genotype passed to the offspring and the cinnamon genotype. They appear to be completely separate unrelated occurrences. Think of it like flipping two different coins. The father flipped a quarter to see if the baby gets the pastel mutant version or the normal for pastel version of the pastel gene and then a completely separate silver dollar was flipped to see if the baby gets the cinnamon or normal for cinnamon version of that separate gene.

But with Mojave and Lesser there does appear to be a relationship between the two mutations. It looks like they are different mutations of the same gene - alleles. Think of it like flipping the same quarter, but lets make it the state quarters. Any one quarter can have only two sides but there are more than two possible sides in circulation. Let's say heads is the normal for white snake complex version but lesser is the Maryland state tail and mojave the California. The white snakes valuable mint mix-ups that have two tails (so no room left for a heads). A leucusitc from crossing lesser and mojave can't give both versions to the same offspring because the flip either lands on California or Maryland and there is only one coin to flip (only one gene involved, just different mutant versions).

There is also the possibility we'll run into linking where two different mutations are close together on the same chromosome but not at the same gene. In this case they would tend to be inherited together or apart but crossovers could happen to change the pairing from time to time.

Randy,
I am by no means an expert (3 semesters of genetics in college more than 3 decades ago) but your your layman's explanation is just about the best I have heard for this particular genetic phenomenon. Kudos & thanks!!
Grant

Or like the last time we both broached this same topic, mojaves, lessers and butters are the same exact thing just varying degrees of natural pigment of the same appearance.

I thought the Platty's had 3 variations? Platty, Lesser, and Lucy? Am I wrong? Thanks.

What I am saying is that the mojave, butter and lesser are all the same. They all look similar just differing base pigment, and sometimes not even that. I produced mojaves last year from mojave x normal to a very interesting normal female and everyone thought the babies were lessers or butters. All three, bred in any combination to each other or themselves make white snakes. The "platty daddy" Ralph has theorized (as I understand it) that it contains another gene separate from the lesser/luecistic. That is why I am saying both that the lucys are not double visuals but dominant supers. I was trying to stay away from that in this thread and keepmy answer simple as last time we diverged into this topic it went on for a very long time.

Hmm. That interesting normal female may have the missing factor needed to produce snakes like the platty daddy.

Strikes me that saying mojave, butter, and lesser are all the same is like saying cherry, strawberry, and raspbery ice cream are all the same. To me, they are similar but not identical.

As Randy says, something like bumblebee requires changing two gene pairs to turn a normal into the abnormal type. The blue-eyed lucies only require changing one gene pair.

Paul Hollander

I wouldn't go as far as to say that lesser and mojave are exactly the same. It's hard to tell either way with no insight into what is happening chemically but they might be like the ABO blood types in humans - the same gene but separate mutations of that gene with differences that really matter if you are getting a transfusion. I think that there have been consistently different appearances in lessers and mojave’s in spite of the occasional extra light mojave or extra dark lesser that might blur the line. Also, the homozygous lesser has consistently looked whiter than the homozygous mojave.

In spite of the differences, there sure seems to also be a relationship between lesser and mojave. The different pastel lines (not Enchi but lemon vs. Graziani etc.) might be an example where the mutation is the same and other genes determine the difference but with the possible exception of lesser and butter I think each mutation in the white snake complex might be a distinctly different mutation of the same gene.

Going back to the state quarter analogy (sorry, not much sense for non US readers) for some reason there seem to be a lot of different possible sides in circulation for this coin/gene. Any one snake of course can only have two sides, one from mom and one from dad. Every conception each parent flips their one quarter (with the two sides representing the two copies of this one gene, there would be lots of other coin tosses for lots of other genes too) and picks one of their two sides to pass on to that particular offspring. The offspring then makes its quarter by putting together the sides from each parent.

I also think the "hidden" mutation that combines with lesser to make platy may well also be another mutant allele in this complex. If so, it would be unique in that it doesn't seem to have an effect on its own, even when homozygous. To really stretch the quarter analogy maybe it's like the Washington face is the normal for white snake version but the hidden gene is also a Washington face but with a too tiny to see special SF mint initial that changes all the rules so when combined with the Maryland state tail it makes a platy rather than just a lesser like the normal Washington fronts.

Actually maybe I've beaten the state quarter analogy to death as I don't know how to fit the original quarter tail into it and you end up with all these quarters with two faces or two tails.

Randy,
you made your post so simple to understand that a chimpanzee that only understands sign language could understand it! Well done!!!!!!

I alway enjoy reading your posts, keep it up!!!!

Pitoon