Reptile & Amphibian Forums

a while back i posted about my nearly-5-year-old redfoot, junior, having weakness walking, especially in the hind legs. someone suggested protein deficiencies, but since i provide occasional meat snacks, i was unsure about that. visits to two different vets gave little insight -- it wasn't calcium-related, and xrays looked normal.

i finally was referred to dr divers at the university of georgia, and the mystery seems to be solved.

my junior is a girl, for one thing! (calling "her" a "she" has been an effort...)

she has a problem called ovarian stasis. upon hitting reproductive maturity, her body decided to start prepping to lay eggs, and her ovaries are enlarged (visible via ultrasound) and at the point where she should be making eggshells (and her blood calcium is elevated accordingly). but she's kind of hung up at this point. her reproductive cycle isn't completing, and this has apparently been going on for months, such that her liver function is starting to suffer (as per blood tests, which is apparently typical in this situation). because of the stress on her body, she's weakened, and this general weakness is what's slowing her down and affecting her gait.

the solution is to spay her, and dr divers is going to attempt to do so endoscopically. this will free up her body's resources so she'll feel better, and to prevent any possible future problems with egg binging.

mainly i wanted to post this in case anyone else had a tortoise that might fall into the category of what junior has been going through.

has anyone here had a tortoise spayed before? junior is set to go in early june...

Hi. I am aware of one female tortoise which had to have its ovaries removed back in the late 1980's and is still alive today. This was a female Madagascar Ploughshare Tortoise on which the Honolulu Zoo staff was performing artificial insemination in an attempt to produce babies. The ill-fated and ridiculous idea resulted in one live birth, but one of the two male tortoises died from an infected penis, and this female lost the ability to reproduce forever due to its ovaries becoming infected and subsequently having to be removed.

Bill, why was this a ridiculous idea?

>>Hi. I am aware of one female tortoise which had to have its ovaries removed back in the late 1980's and is still alive today. This was a female Madagascar Ploughshare Tortoise on which the Honolulu Zoo staff was performing artificial insemination in an attempt to produce babies. The ill-fated and ridiculous idea resulted in one live birth, but one of the two male tortoises died from an infected penis, and this female lost the ability to reproduce forever due to its ovaries becoming infected and subsequently having to be removed.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

interesting... and, like ej, i'm curious why artificial insemination was a bad idea. some kind of, umm, mechanical reason why it's unwise?

if anyone else was curious about the topic, i found a website that discusses follicular stasis in greater detail...
click me

I am surprised you need to ask why it was ridiculous. Just look at the results!! Two invaluable and virtually irreplaceable animals were lost to all conservation efforts because the zoo personnel did not have the knowledge and expertise to breed the species normally and steadfastly refused to turn any of the reproductive sized ones over to someone who did, in spite of being told to do so by the owners of four of the animals.

Also, at the time (and probably still today), AI in tortoises was highly experimental. I am sure if it has become more commonplace, EJ will gladly point that out for me. It had never been successfully accomplished in the US then, and may not have been since. There was only one published article on the subject by someone in Australia at the time as I recall. Subjecting specimens of one of the most critically endangered species in the world to that still seems to me to be careless and irresponsible. It should have been tried first on some much more common species to see what effect it had on the animals before being done to 8 of the 9 yniphora in the country. These are reptiles, not mammals, and the effects and proper techniques are not the same. In my experience with Radiated Tortoise (closest relatives of yniphora), the male tortoises can tell when the females are ready to be bred, and if they aren't, they don't waste their energy trying. I never believed the females were in reproductive condition, and that is why the males were disinterested, and why the AI work was so unsuccessful (1 birth in 10 years). Everyone is entitled to his opinion, of course, and that was and still is mine.

The male who died of his infected penis had been electro-ejaculted so many times that his penis would no longer retract. It just dragged along on the ground behind him until it got infected and he died.

oh, that poor male...

sorry, i didn't "get" that it was the procedure that was causing the male's infection and the female's eventual loss of fertility. had no idea that it was that brutal. i was thinking that maybe it was ridiculous because of a low success rate (which i guess it also had) or some other reason/cause you hadn't mentioned.

Most tortoise keepers would agree that healthy, well acclimated tortoises will breed on their own without resorting to unnatural and experimental methods.
In the Honolulu case it was especially dumb as the animals in question were not injured in any way that would prevent them from mating...i.e. the male missing both of his back legs or something like that. In addition, it wasn't like they were about to die of old age either--the zoo had years to work with the animals and get the husbandry/health right. Also, as many keepers have found, tortoises can reproduce just fine right up until they die of old age. Or at least close to it.
I know my friend Dick Bartlett's old female radiated, who just died recently, was producing fertile eggs until a year or two ago and she had major health issues to boot.
Dick's remaining male is as horny as ever too even after more than 52 years in captivity.
Lastly, such artificial breeding methods were only experimental back then (probably even now) and trying to figure it out on such a rare and endangered species was profoundly idiotic.

Well put, Carl, and AMEN to that!

Bill,I think you nailed it.Oddly these are the same kind of institutions that kill perfectly good eggs sometimes.They also have a long history of stateing that private people should not be able to own animals.Upon hatching my first Manouria I called that same zoo for advise on raising the young sence they had bred them and I read their paper which helped me a lot,and I told them so.The first thing they said to me was,"we dont approve of private people breeding these tortoises".Their story ended with their self congradulations of hatching.A few years later I noticed the noted *"hybred "after their offspring in the stud book.I kept an entire clutch of 38 hatchlings and raised them all for two years(for a base line study on diet and weight) and some for 18 years to fully understand raising them.This year I had my first C.B.phayrei lay fertile eggs.She was 38 lbs.and 13 yrs old.Nutrishion environment=eggs eggs correct incubation temp/humidity/medium=offspring.Add some obsessive worrying,anel retentive observation,and you can do it repetedly.Vic

Vic,
Your story reminds me of one that I had with the Dreher Park Zoo in West Palm Beach, Florida years ago.
They had a large pair of yellowfoot tortoises that they wanted to get reproduction on but had know idea how to do so as they had got eggs but could never hatch a single one. A good friend of mine was a keeper there at the time and so he asked if I could come by and advise the zoo on what to do. Prior to this, the zoo would occasionally call me to identify exotic tortoises that people either found wandering roads here in south Florida or that someone wanted to donate.
So, I gave them a general care regime and then gave them exact directions on incubators, incubation temps, humidity and substrate that I had learned from my own trials and errors.
The next eggs they got from their pair began hatching and soon they had more hatchlings than they knew what to do with...literally. A year or two later I had another friend who was interested in obtaining a couple of neonate yellowfoots of a captive bred origin. So, naturally I approached the zoo management and inquired if I could purchase two hatchlings from their group---that I had learned they were having difficulty disposing of. The reply I got from the zoo management? "We don't deal with the public. We are an accredited zoo and we only deal with other ACCREDITED institutions and never amateur keepers."
I wanted to scream in their faces.

Vic and Mayday – Of course zoos will never sell or let a member of the public keep any animals – they will loose their significance in the world. (Read if public keep the same animals as the zoo then they why go to a zoo). Also the zoos want to be classed as the “expert”. I have seen them having so much trouble breeding many types of animals – clearly because the animals are not getting the right nutrition or environment.

Zoos drive animals to extinction – they want their animals to be as hard to get as possible - that way they will be the experts and leaders of their own empire.

If an animal is having trouble in the wild then keeping them as a pet- that way the animal’s will be kept for our children. But with zoos trying to keep them out of the hands of the public then there is no hope.

There are many convaluted stories about Zoos in the USA.I would have to say that there are many successful ones too.I know a lot of Zoo people and as a whole they are very dedicated folks that in most cases are not payed very well for their work.I learned a lot and was inspired by some over the years.One way to look at it from their side is back when they did sell to the private sector they were busted by 60 minutes when they found that animals that came from Zoos were being used by some big dollor "hunt clubs" for people pay big bucks to "hunt"and kill "exotic free ranging/tame animals.There are also cases of directors of Zoos being taken down for buying animals that came from smugglers.So,just like everything else there is good and bad.I worry the most about politicians that want to take our right to own wildlife,unfortunately Zoos would go along with them."Defy their destiny" breed turtles,live free or die. Vic

This is a totally wrong statement in addition to being total nonsense.

There are many zoos which deal with the private sector and in a very successful manner.

The policy zoos develope are conceived locally and there does not seem to be a standard policy.

This debated rages on between zoos themselves as to whether they should deal with the public or not and from what I can see they are pretty much evenly split.

>>Vic and Mayday – Of course zoos will never sell or let a member of the public keep any animals – they will loose their significance in the world. (Read if public keep the same animals as the zoo then they why go to a zoo). Also the zoos want to be classed as the “expert”. I have seen them having so much trouble breeding many types of animals – clearly because the animals are not getting the right nutrition or environment.
>>
>>Zoos drive animals to extinction – they want their animals to be as hard to get as possible - that way they will be the experts and leaders of their own empire.
>>
>>If an animal is having trouble in the wild then keeping them as a pet- that way the animal’s will be kept for our children. But with zoos trying to keep them out of the hands of the public then there is no hope.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

AZA rules are the standard policy.

Don't get me wrong. I am not against zoos or their programs at all. And I do understand that they have to maintain standards to keep their accreditation.
But my point was that the zoo I mentioned dealt with me whenever they needed my advice or imput. They happily worked with an 'amateur keeper' when it suited them. But the minute I wanted something from them I got the door slammed in my face.

...did ya called da Dr. and what da Doctor says ???

>> I got the door slammed in my face
...no more monkeys jumpin' on me face !!!...

...what follows if they giveaway some of their li'l yertles to people like us...DUMBO could be sittin' by our swimming pool in no time...

>>they have to maintain standards to keep their...

My experience with zoos is split which is the reason for my comment. The AZA does have guidelines but how zoos actually deal with the public seems to be governed more by local policy or the will of the zoo director or who ever in the chain of command.

>>Don't get me wrong. I am not against zoos or their programs at all. And I do understand that they have to maintain standards to keep their accreditation.
>> But my point was that the zoo I mentioned dealt with me whenever they needed my advice or imput. They happily worked with an 'amateur keeper' when it suited them. But the minute I wanted something from them I got the door slammed in my face.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

...shouldn't these studbooks are the bridge to mend their relation with private sectors or is this just their "plan B"; something their could rely on later should (heaven forbid!!!) lightning strikes again ?
...>>Zoos drive animals to extinction – they want their animals to be as hard to get as possible - that way they will be the experts and leaders of their own empire.
>>This debated rages on between zoos themselves as to whether they should deal with the public or not and from what I can see they are pretty much evenly split.
>>The first thing they said to me was,"we dont approve of private people breeding these tortoises".Their story ended with their self congradulations of hatching.A few years later I noticed the noted *"hybred "after their offspring in the stud book.

bless your heart please God!
>>keeping them as a pet- that way the animal’s will be kept for our children

caught your reference (or did i?); that was a really interesting movie. peter greenaway is quite a unique director.

kinda sicko for some!!!...can't wait to see da yertle's turn!!!hopefully Dr. Seuss's next

ooh well, june is near and our fingers are crossed so keep us up with Jr.

luv ya & ya tort

I have not heard of Spayed tortoises. But just wanted to thank you for the follow up post on your Tortoise.

Renard

I have heard of sliders being spayed, but not specifically torts until reading this post. AS that was the original question, I think that there could be a number of medical reasons that would be most appropriately treated by spaying the female.

It is unfortunate that you are faced with this option, but if you have to decide between losing the animal and spaying her, as it seems you are, I would make the same choice.

Please keep us posted as to how this goes with your girl. I wish you the best of luck and pray that it all goes well so that your female fully recovers and is feeling back to her old self soon. OF course with retiples the recovery is the longest part.

thanks for your thoughts. it seems like an extreme thing to do, but this has been going on for months now, and the vet really seems to think that this will help her. it's been sad watching her crawl around so weakly for so long and not knowing what/if i'm doing anything wrong, what could be causing it, etc. until now.

thankfully at least he seems confident that it can be done endoscopically instead of going through her plastron. the ovaries, it seems, are held in place with very elastic tissues, so both can likely be removed with only one incision.

june 16 is the big date, so i'll be sure to post an update.

It's a very simple and safe procedure if that's the rout you'd like to take.

The greater risk comes into play when you try and cut costs.

If the animal is that important to you tell the vet that safety is paramount.

>>thanks for your thoughts. it seems like an extreme thing to do, but this has been going on for months now, and the vet really seems to think that this will help her. it's been sad watching her crawl around so weakly for so long and not knowing what/if i'm doing anything wrong, what could be causing it, etc. until now.
>>
>>thankfully at least he seems confident that it can be done endoscopically instead of going through her plastron. the ovaries, it seems, are held in place with very elastic tissues, so both can likely be removed with only one incision.
>>
>>june 16 is the big date, so i'll be sure to post an update.
>>
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

absolutely. money's not really an object for me as far as the health of a loved pet is concerned.

After having read every post I just have to ask why not get a male for this girl? Even if you choose to not incubate the eggs? Seems like a more natural way to handle the whole thing. I certainly wish you and you girl the best of luck. Douglas Beard / Flora & Fauna

i've thought about getting her a male pal, and i'd absolutely love to see her babies, but i wouldn't want to breed her unless i knew that i could provide good homes for them... it sounds crazy to a lot of people, but i'd have a very difficult time just selling them... (i'd rather give them away to people if i absolutely knew they would take good care of them!) and it's not as though redfoots are in crucial need of captive breeding...

People will take better care of it if you give it value.(sell it for money)Its just human nature with anything,but more so with a animal.Its easer for them to pass it on to someone else when they get board with something they have know monotary commitment.So they think well its free I give it away,to someone else with an impulse to get something free.Or bring it back to you.Make the animal important! charge and dont feel bad about it. Donate the money to me! lol or a charity you like.After you swet out the incubation time wondering and worrying about every little thing,Living on that thin line between stability and chaos, tempetures,electric power loss,is it to damp to dry.You'll start to think, yea this is some accomplishment turning this container of chemicals into a living beast.I did'nt steel it from the wild.Its captive bred and born.Yea, I'm do'in better than nature,no predators in my jungle.Tell'em its "the best i've ever seen" A young person might buy it after saving his money all year,love it, study everything that ends in olgy,becomes the next Archy Carr.....what? it could happen.or not.Vic