Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i always read about how people feed their animals "gut loaded" crickets and that they think it's better. how do you do it?

Heres why, to gut load means to feed them. If you have to feed them just before you use them to feed your monitors, can only mean one thing, that you were not feeding them in the first place, or the supplier was not feeding them. Which is kinda dumb.

As cricket ranchers "normally" feed crickets food they grow the fastest on. Which means its generally the "best" food to feed crickets.

To gut load crickets food you precieve is better is kinda odd. How do you know what they are already feeding on is bad??

If your keeping crickets for any lenght of time without feeding them, Well thats is just WRONG, and you should feed the crickets for the sake of the dang hungry crickets.

Gut loading appears to be another UV Bulb type of subject. Its something not needed or beneficial is you already have decent husbandry practices.

If you don't have decent husbandry practices, you and your charges would be better served by GETTING BETTER practices then buying a commercial product and not understanding what is ACTUALLY needed.

In otherwords, you do not need to take medicine if your not sick. If the crickets are normal, that means they are healthy and they do not need or benefit from any form of gut loading, nor does the reptile that consumes them. Gut loading is only of benefit if the crickets were straving in the first place, don't let them starve.

So, feed healthy normally fed crickets and all is well. Simple enough.

For those that are spending money on products not needed, TAKE that extra money and buy more food or bigger cages, or a new house with some land and a helicopter. Or take a trip to actually see these wonderful reptiles in nature(while you still can).

Sorry if I offended any product suppliers, but there are many sides to these stories. Cheers

I didn't know ''gut loading'' just meant feed if they are starving then feed them. i've been feeding mine and they have been doing fine, I was under the inpression that it was something more. thanks a lot, I always enjoy reading your posts because they always seem to be ACTUALLY helping someone rather than telling them that they are doing alright when they obviously aren't.

to fully understand what FR is saying, you need to set up a cricket breeding colony, this is the only way you can understand about proper support, keeping 1000 in temporary confinement is meaningless and wont teach you much.

funny how views don’t change much thru the years. let me share a story from the early 90s about FR being interviewed by Philip de Vojoli (advance vivarium author) at this time Philip just finished working on his latest book (The right way to feed insects loving lizards) in this booklet he advocated the importance of gut loading and minerals-vitamins dusting, then came FR with a shocking statement (you don’t need to gut load crickets) this was and still to this day beyond Philips comprehension.

In fact its beyond many pro breeders understanding, as I write this someone is publishing about the benefits of gut loading insects, this is really funny cause they should be publishing about proper husbandry of insects and lizards.

I have to wonder if these keepers have learned anything thru the years, or is it that they are trapped in there ways? Maybe they refuse to try other options?

If you have to feed them just before you use them to feed your monitors, can only mean one thing, that you were not feeding them in the first place, or the supplier was not feeding them. Which is kinda dumb.

With new owners of a single baby monitor, they are buying crickets, which may or may not be well fed, from petstores.
Some are pre-packaged for who knows how long, in boxes of 25 or so.

If they buy 50 crickets or more, to last them a few days or a week, should they not be feeding/gutloading them, so's the monitor gets the most out of them, just to be on the safe side?

I'd rather feed a big fat overly 'gutloaded' cricket to my baby monitor, than a bunch of chitin with little nutritional value.

Their other option would be to buy in bulk, only to have most of them die before the baby monitor has a chance to eat the 500 or so.

Susan.

Hi Susan, It appears you are rationalizing for your own benefit. Susan, we all do that. But as a cricket breeder, if you do not feed them for a few days and keep them warm, they die. If you keep them cool, 60F to 70F, then they can go weeks even a month, without food, with no ill effects.

The point I am making has slipped by you. If you think the crickets need food, then feed them. Why is feeding them before you offer them to reptiles called gut loading. You know, when I type that, I have the strongest feeling to laugh. Its simply feeding the crickets. And the crickets should be fed food that supports them. Calling it gut loading is the silly part.

In my opinion, its a commerial term, not a husbandry term.

I will ask this question, not that I know the answer. If you gut load immediately before feeding the cricket off. Then that material will not have been digested and absorbed into the crickets body and is actually undigested matter. So why not just feed that stuff to the monitor?????? Why the middleman? Cheers

I will ask this question, not that I know the answer. If you gut load immediately before feeding the cricket off. Then that material will not have been digested and absorbed into the crickets body and is actually undigested matter. So why not just feed that stuff to the monitor?????? Why the middleman?

It's very possible I've just 'picked up' on the term, 'gutloading', when it's basically just feeding the crickets a highly nutritious feed and lots of it and not necessarily, 'immediately before feeding the cricket off'.
But, as for your question "why not just feed that stuff to the monitor?", I don't think a baby monitor would be likely to eat the cricket's food, unless it was disguised as a tasty, hopping insect. You know? Boing....boing....boing......

BTW- it wouldn't be the first time, I've missed the point

Thanks!

Susan.

I read something on this subject once. After I understood that there is no difference to just feeding them, and trying to pack extra stuff right before they are fed off.
The idea being that the insects eat a diet that would pass through the lizards system and make no benefit, so without the insect digesting it, and making use of it, the food is of no benefit.
"Gut loading" is a commercial term used to sell a product that cost alot more than other insect food products.
Ive had crickets and roaches breed in cages, and in colonies. Both would be offered a cheap diet (those in the cages were fed little or nothing, but they cleaned the cages for me), the crickets living in the cages would not go away, these crickets were the healthiest, and fastest, yet not very big.
When I see the term "gut loading", its like when I see or hear the term "power feeding" I realize that this person heard or read this in a source that is better left alone.
Simply put, the crickets do better if they eat, rather than starve.

I have to say I cracked up laughing reading this and Ill tell you why. I buy my crickets as needed, yes usually daily. I have been told over and over to gut load the crickets I buy, but I get them from the local pet store who...um ...feeds them the same stuff I have. I dont like buying them in advance because I have enough to worry about cant stand what the larvae looks like (sorry squeamish a little) and I cant stand watching a couple die and them eat each other.

Now than Im going through several hundred a week I may reconsider daily (actually every two to three days) because of expense, but I really dont want to.

OK Off Topic, point is I figure and dealer/breeder with large colonies wants live crickets so likely are gut loading. I love your response.
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1.0.0 YBS
1.2.0 RES
1.0.0 red belly cooter
1.0.0 Fire belly toad
0.0.1 Savannah Monitor
0.1.0 Leopard Gecko
cats, dog, ferret, rats and hamsters

I always thought gutloading them mean to feed the crickets so they have more meat and nutritional value to the animal you are feeding because usually the crickets at the petstore come starving anyway. They don't feed it to cut down on the smell and the clean up. I feed my crickets crushed, good quality, dog kibble and fish food to beef up the crickets. I do this 24-48 hrs prior to feeding them to my lizards and frogs.

What makes you think the crickets at the pet store come starving. As I mentioned, abused crickets die very quickly.

Also, all you have to do is look at the crickets body. healthy normal crickets have a decent sized body, skinny ones(lack of food) have a tiny shrunken body.

My last point, most who gut load crickets for monitors are beginers with little actual success. Us old time successful keepers and breeders do not gut load. Yet, our animals, grow like weeds, breed like crazy and live long lifes. Which is why I bring up these silly kinds of points.

The terms, gut load, or UV bulbs, are a commerial tool to MAKE AN INEXPERIENCED KEEPER FEEL GOOD. They are not so much for the monitors health. So you spend money needlessly to make yourself feel better.

If you knew the truth(that junk is not needed or even helpful) NOW, you will feel bad in a different way. Cheers

It is in theory, to feed a "supposed" high vitamin source encapselated food that "supposedly" the cricket cannot digest, the lizard in theory is supposed to benefit from the gut contents.
The problem being that the lizard cannot digest the food, the cricket can, so it is a lie to sell an overpriced product.
Just feed your crickets, keep them healthy, hydrate them, and all is well. Whatever diet the crickets eat and do good on benefits the lizard and the crickets, its that simple.

I buy many crickets at once, so I have to feed and water them.

Flukers makes great cricket food and drink (jello) that is fortified with calcium and nutrients.

It says gut-load on the jar.

Even my mice get the best feed I can get.

for a couple extra bucks, it makes ME feel good.

Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey

our critters

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1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cane" Rescue
1.2.9 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids
0.0.2 Thamnophis marcianus - Checkered Garters "spot" & "Zig"
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garter - Princess
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua"
0.1.10 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snakes
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
0.1.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER"
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
0.1.0. calico RAT
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

This is exactly what I am saying, your inexperience is being addressed. And your spending extra money for nothing, other then to make you feel good.

I think that is wrong, your feeling good because you HOPE that product is better. The truth is, its not.

I ask, how do you measure what is a better food, what is better for the monitor? what does fortified mean? or more nutritious? You see, you have no ruler to measure what that means to a monitor. Except the progress of the monitor.

So, if I feed less nutritious foods and by your standard I do, and my monitors outperform yours, what food is ACTUALLY more nutritious?????

To make a point, how long have you had that monitor? what are the results. A healthy normal sav can and does grow around five inches a month. In fact, more is really supported. In fact, most monitor species grow that. And that is without fortified or nutritious foods. So how does yours compare?

I would understand if your monitor grew(measure of progress) three inches a month and you added gutloading and it increased that to five inches a month. That would show an improvement and may be worth the extra cost. But to make you feel better is kinda selfish.

My suggestion would be, take that extra money and buy more less nutritious foods, or a bigger cage. Something that will actually benefit the animals. Then you can go have a beer and be proud of how well your monitor is doing.

Remember, I have and am now, raising lots and lots of monitors. As I read these types of posts, my little fellas grow up. Yet, those who post these types of posts, never seem to have their monitors last very long. This is the sad part. You/s seem to be concerned and caring, yet, your caring does little to actually benefit the monitor. My hope is, you will think and then decide to actually learn what WILL benefit your monitor, and practice that new learned husbandry.

Its not that gutloading is a bad thing, its merely something thats not needed and could be replaced with something that is needed. Both in time and money spent. Cheers

"your spending extra money for nothing, other then to make you feel good."

Crickets need to eat too, and if I was worried about that extra dollar or two that calcium fortified cricket food costs, I should not have a monitor at all

"I ask, how do you measure what is a better food, what is better for the monitor? what does fortified mean? or more nutritious? You see, you have no ruler to measure what that means to a monitor. Except the progress of the monitor."

He is healthy, growing, and eating well, that's all I need

So, if I feed less nutritious foods and by your standard I do, and my monitors outperform yours, what food is ACTUALLY more nutritious?????

I never judged you or your feed, I don't even know you

"To make a point, how long have you had that monitor?"

Chomper is monitor number 2, Barney was 5 and a half when he was killed, absolutely nothing to do with husbandry, he was murdered. it took 2 years to get over that loss before chompie entered the picture here.

what are the results. A healthy normal sav can and does grow around five inches a month. In fact, more is really supported. In fact, most monitor species grow that. And that is without fortified or nutritious foods. So how does yours compare?

Chomper is progressing normally, thank you

I would understand if your monitor grew(measure of progress) three inches a month and you added gutloading and it increased that to five inches a month. That would show an improvement and may be worth the extra cost. But to make you feel better is kinda selfish.

is it selfish if some folks buy expensive dog food for fido, and others use ol' Roy from wally world? Am I selfish because I like fillet while others eat burgers?

My suggestion would be, take that extra money and buy more less nutritious foods, or a bigger cage.

Our animals are housed better than most, I build cages, and enjoy woodworking, we have 3000 square feet to work with, 40 acres of forest and a friend with a saw mill, Chomper is currently living large and always will, thanks

"Then you can go have a beer and be proud of how well your monitor is doing."

I don't drink, it dulls the senses, rots the liver and causes more divorces and family abuse than any other vice, and drunks have no business raising reptiles.

"Remember, I have and am now, raising lots and lots of monitors."

Great, That's a good thing, at least we know that they will be better off with you than most, you can parlay that experience in a far more effective manner by sprinkling in a dash of diplomacy, be happy that folks ask questions, thats how they will learn.

I applaud you for caring about the monitors, and I always love to talk critters with anyone who will listen, after all, I did not judge your grammatical or spelling skills....

I'm going to stop ranting now, Judging total strangers whom you know nothing about speaks for itself.

Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
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1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cane" Rescue
1.2.9 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids
0.0.2 Thamnophis marcianus - Checkered Garters "spot" & "Zig"
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garter - Princess
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua"
0.1.10 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snakes
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
0.1.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER"
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
0.1.0. calico RAT
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

A little sensitive are we. This is only conversation remember.

Of course you should be crickets, but what I am saying is, your thinking that the extra cost for some precieved better product, is not all that accurate.

If you are really happy, then why are you so sensitive? That is a question only you can answer to yourself.

The Thing about forums are, they are public, and conversations here rarely help the poster, but they sure do clear up a lot for other people. So this does not have to be about you, as many many are reading it. So please take it easy a little bit. Cheers

Nothing personal, It has compounded some over time.

Everyone assumes that since chomper is a baby, that we have never had a monitor before.

Thanks for taking it in such stride,

And you are right, the term "gut loading" is a ploy to pry more money out of wallets.

I just feel a little better because I have seen calcium deficiency kill more than one lizard, thats all.

Peace,
Wayne
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1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cane" Rescue
1.2.9 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids
0.0.2 Thamnophis marcianus - Checkered Garters "spot" & "Zig"
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garter - Princess
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua"
0.1.10 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snakes
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
0.1.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER"
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
0.1.0. calico RAT
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

Feed a proper diet including a natural source of calcium, such as whole animals which have a skeleton, or even mothers milk in their stomachs yet.
As someone who has kept many reptiles over many years, and helped for many years with rescued reptiles, I can tell you that thousands of calcium, and vitamin deficiant reptiles were recieved, and cured with a simple whole animal diet with nothing expensive or commercial. In fact the owners of these reptiles insisted that they went the extra mile on expensive petstore products, special foods, UV bulbs, and sterile caging. In the end they gave the animals up because they couldnt figure why it did no good.
The problem is that you seem to think you have loads of experience with monitors, you get offended when someone who does have loads of experience sees another one in a million keepers that came before you thinking the same. Why, hes used to reading posts like this day after day, and seeing the monitors and owners disappear when the monitors expire in no time at all.
Instead of getting snippy, and defensive, ask questions, post pictures of your monitors cage, describe its husbandry.
In the years Ive posted here I couldnt begin to count the thousands of newer keepers that come and go, the animals that come and go. In that time Ive pretty much had most of the monitors I still have, or bred a few of my own, they are now healthy happy adults that have laid many eggs (I just havent incubated, any in a long time now).
I have nowhere near the experience nor will I ever, that Frank Retes has with monitors, if you want to do good by your monitor, ask him loads of questions, dont get an attitude, and learn to read what he tells you, learn to think for yourself from the information he gives you to use.
Lighten up and make this hobby fun.

This thread is annoying. I can tell you as an experienced reptile owner what Ive seen and what I know. Not only I have had reptiles, but many people had them who were close to me, so I was able to see many different outcomes.

But let me start with this. In the wild, insects are able to get calcium, other vitamins etc from a ever revolving and complex ecosystem.

Which makes sense... We as human beings need calcium as well- and lots of it. Theyre always telling us to give our kids plenty of milk and vitamins. But where did we get it before we milked cows, and ate cereal with loaded vitamins? Simple fact is, our food is given low quality grain and thats all they eat. The cows themselves cannot live on that quality of food for so long, so they usually butcher it early. The cows are captive bred to us, like the crickets, roaches, and worms are captive bred to lizards. Back in the old times humans would probably eat some plant matter, fruit, a small cat or something, a deer- A huge variety in a complex ecosystem. How did we ever survive before? Well theres your answer, and same goes for reptiles. They need extra stuff if their food source is only being fed potatoes.

I have seen what happens to the reptiles that do not get fed quality crickets. Sure they may do fine for 1,2,3,4 whatever years, but they always have something wrong in the end. Maybe its kidney failure for incorrect balance of vitamins, or the ever famous MBD. One of the things that Ive seen in this thread too many times is that gutloading wastes money. Wow.... little tubs of flukers cost what... 2.50. And wll last for months... where the hell can I find a bigger cage, a helicopter, or a mansion with 2.50. What kind of world do you live in? Its not like they are trying to sell us some 20 dollar supplement and brainwashing us to think its necessary. Its 2.50. I don't necessary buy it myself, I do other things, but it does make it easy for the people to just pour it in there and not have to worry.

I do not breed crix, but I keep them in mass amounts. I do not need to breed them to know how to feed them to my lizards.

Sorry if I offended, its the truth, its common sense- dont listen to people, keep gutloading. Peace.

Back in the old times humans would probably eat some plant matter, fruit, a small cat or something, a deer- A huge variety in a complex ecosystem. How did we ever survive before? Well theres your answer, and same goes for reptiles. They need extra stuff if their food source is only being fed potatoes.

No offense taken, but I don't quite understand what you're saying in this couple sentences.

How did we ever survive before????? For the conditions we had to exist in all those many years ago we were actually healthier then than now. We ate more whole foods, nothing processed. Everything is processed now and we've been brainewashed to believe it's better for us. It's no better for us than it is animals, including crickets. They KEY is a variety of whole foods. If crickets are fed properly they really don't need supplements whether they cost 2.50 or 25.50.

Just my two cents.
Quig

Between a good diet, and good husbandry, supplements are not needed. Anyone who sees MBD with a carnivorous reptile is feeding a very bad diet, whole animals dont have that problem.
There are many plants and food sources that have calcium levels much higher than many processed foods, also they are easier digested, and made better use of.
Why have I seen thousands of reptiles on the edge of death, with MBD, starving, dehydrating, that came to a reptile rescue. After they were set up in useful cages, fed a good simple diet, and kept under standard household lightbulbs they didnt even resemble the same animal in a few weeks, in fact the former owners didnt even recognize the animal in some cases. Most of the tegus had MBD, most lived beforehand on canned or prepared catfoods and diets, were fed fresh fruits, etc, but they were dieing. These animals were switched to whole animals such as rodents as their primary food source, most have never eaten anything but whole animals since, years later they are thriving on that diet.
In 16 years of keeping monitors, and over 20 years with other reptiles Ive never had MBD as a problem, Ive never seen impactions.
The best way is for some of these people to try for themselves, and see what happens, but wouldnt it be easier to try what works, and experiment from there, instead of killing a few reptiles to learn the hard way, just the very basics?

what is MBD?

Metabolic bone disease, where a lack of calcium over a period of time causes the animal to take calcium from its skeleton for life functions, or too little calcium for a growing young animal causes the same thing.
If fed a proper diet, they dont have these problems. Many reptiles with MBD are fed commercial diets.
To this day the reptile product industry insists that you need UV bulbs to keep your reptiles alive and healthy, but its a proven fact that these are income generating products, not at all required, and in most cases absolutely useless for what they claim is posible with them.

The simple point is that many food sources provide plenty of calcium, without spending a few bucks for a few ounces. A few bucks per pound, or alot less can produce better results, been there, seen it, done it, and learned from it.
All of the fancy petstore products in the world wont make a bit of difference if the animals husbandry sucks.
Let me ask you this, do flukers cricket suppliers use their gutload product to produce crickets by the millions? Nothing against the company or their products, but Ive seen first hand and experienced their cricketfood being used compared to other food sources.
You said it correctly, in a few years, and most times only a few months to a year it shows. There have been many of those who have a monitor they spend extra on, only to see it die in a few years at most and dont understand why.
I buy my crickets in bulk, feed them croc food that Im still using up for years, and have done so with roaches (until just recently Ive kept several roach species for longer than most reptile keepers have had reptiles). I have fed cheap catfood, cheap dogfood, leftover human foods(depends what it is), and used monkey biscuits in the past. Ive used cricket "gutload" products that caused crickets to stay smaller, live for short periods of time, and cause me to buy crickets alot more often. In fact Id be more worried with the average new keepers husbandry about crickets who are thirsty roaming their reptiles cage, anyone who has much experience with insectivorous reptiles knows why I say that.
A better cage, better living conditions, whole animal foods, and less stress will go a long way to produce great results, this is a proven fact, not a sales pitch or an assumption.

Look at the results produced by the person giving advice, then make your mind up.

"thought" as another way of looking at it. I will try to articulate...

The broader concept must be understood. If new herpers buy into all these concepts like UVB, gut loading ect...then they get confused as to what is really taking place.They start theorizing/thinking from a FLAWED perspective out of the gate. Take UVB for example. A kid puts a UVB on his lizard and raises it with no appearing problems. He was told by the high speed Petco reptile expert to do this and now its been reenforced as he thinks he has no problems(healthy appearing lizard). And now UVB has become the "gospel" in his thoughts.

The problem lies in that he never realises his UVB only addressed a SYMPTOM of a bigger problem...poor husbendry. He goes on beleaving all is well and never understands HEAT is the issue not UVB. So all the reptile related deciscions he makes are going off bad info. Same with gut loading...one could say what the hell if it makes you feel better but in reality it only muddys the water.

I guess the point is herpers must understand WHY they do this or that....the real meaning /reasoning behind things. Only then can they start to make educated guesses on how to best proceed with their herps.

its common sense- dont listen to people, keep gutloading.

I fully intend to. The only thing I will say though, I thought 'gutloading' meant to 'stuff their faces with high quality food' which makes perfect sense to me, so I'll keep on doing that, whatever it's called. That way, I know they're not hungry when fed off.

Susan.

your missing the point, its not the crickets thats limiting the outcome of your and your friends lizards. Its most likely marginal husbandry.

Now its your turn to "not be offended" as you and your friends what to blame the crickets, and its not them. The Lite at the end of this tunnel is not gutloading or UV bulbs, its learning successful husbandry.

The problem is nice folks blindly following what they were told and what they were told is WRONG.

Most of you were told by someone at a petshop or something similar. Why don't you ask them for proof that what they say works.

In my case, i have generations upon generations of many species of monitors, and 99% of them, I raised from hatchlings, that I hatched myself.

I say this, because I actually have something to back up what I say.

Also your rationalization about what crickets do in nature is silly. Its silly because most monitors do not eat crickets all that often in nature, as least not these type crickets. Also, it does not matter, as THIS IS NOT NATURE. We have proof of successful longterm husbandry, now and here in captivity. You know, apples to apples.

So whip it out, lets see your level of success with your approach and show why it works. Thanks

Ok, the whole point of the nature reference was to say that this isn't nature, so certain things need to be done to make it on the same grounds. I agree with the people who say supplements arent necessary if your feeding your crickets or whatever the right stuff. Now if you click into what I said earlier I specifically said that I dont do it myself, but it makes it easier for other people.

Certain conspiracy theorists in this forum think that supplementing is propoganda from the pet stores and we spend millions of dollars each year that go to the big bad reptile supply capitalists. Ok, and all I said was thats simply not true, its cheap and its easy.

Other people are saying, well supplementing and uvb don't matter if you dont know proper husbandry. - So wait, I dont understand... so we shouldnt do it.... IDK what you are trying to say. Sorry.

I know proper husbandy FR, my reptiles do fantastic, and its not necessarily "my friends" that Ive witnessed go wrong in the past. Im not that damn stupid to think, wow ok, as long as I got the uv and the gutloading down, Itll all go great! NO NEED TO WORRY ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE! So frankly I dunno where your comin from.

Most of the folks are led to believe, some things are needed.

For instance, most that come here with problems, brought all they were told was needed from the pet sho/reptile shop.

Like the tank, the UV bulb, the suppliments, the water bowl, the hide, the branch, the indoor/outdoor carpet, OR a couple inches of make-a-burrow commerical substrate, etc.

They were led believe, this will work. The problem is, it doesn't.

As trusting people, they have faith that what they are told will work. Oh that stuff and a caresheet.

The point is, most of that stuff not only does not work, its actually a hinderence to what will work.

In any area, when something is wrong, you troubleshoot. Troubleshooting is mostly eliminating the simplist things first. So these fine folks, check off the above list. Sorry, that list has very little if nothing to do with the success of a monitor.

The key to monitors is what you said, You said, my monitor is doing fine. That is more helpful then gutloading or UV bulbs. You see, we are working with living animals, and you judge what is WORKING, by how well these animals are doing. Not by checking the above off a list.

Not to mess with you, but you said your monitors are doing well, please discribe what that means. You see, there is no set standard as to what that means. Which is very sad. To most, it means their animal is still alive.

And yes, we do have a war against such things like gutloading and UV bulbs as they have WITHOUT QUESTION caused the death of thousands of monitors that did not want to die. I guess I could just blame the keepers for believing what they were told. Cheers

Pet product industry advertisements.
Those companies spend millions on adds in fancy magazines which are placed all around some articles which cover (sometimes) much better info.
The petstores preach that you need these products because once you buy the animal, the cage, the lights, etc etc etc, you only need food, so they push these products to get a more consistant income.
Also some people who write books, and articles on these creatures are having no sucess at all, but continue publishing books about captive care and the use of these products.
The problem is that these things have reptile keepers brain-washed into believing whats good for them and whats not.

FR asked, what do you call "doing good"?
May we see pictures of them, and describe what doing good means?
Not to say that Im an expert or anything but anyone whos posted here in the last several years knows my monitors well, thousands of pictures, and events documented sometimes daily until I took a recent break from participating here.
Ive made mistakes, believe me many, and I try to prevent others from making the same mistakes, or mistakes Ive known many others to do.
In my collection among monitors alone I have possibly the largest female albig known of (still young at over 6 years old and 6ft 8 inches long). I have a healthy colorful, voracious, very fast and hungry flavi-argus male at 4ft long. I have red ackies I hatched from eggs layed by parents I raised, that have produced many many eggs.
My wife and I decided to keep one of the beardies we hatched from hundreds of eggs layed one year when we had the rest sold off by a friend.
Ive reduced my collection and spend alot more time with my dogs, hiking, etc. I used to have several more monitors, it just became not so much fun, and alot of work.
Id say mine are doing pretty good, and have done pretty good for years.

I never said I had a monitor. I joined in on this conversation because people were adressing gutloading and uv for all reptiles as a whole. It became a popular topic, so I decided to check it out. I keep sailfins, and water dragons and about... 2 years ago started with frilleds. Idk if you noticed, but I never really post in the monitor section, but if you went to frilled dragons you would see me on every other thread.

I dont have a digital camera, so I cant upload pictures, but either way, I dont need to prove myself.

I would like to hear more about what your talking about... What do you mean that so many die every year from uv? How is it harmful, and where are you getting these statistics from?

O yea, I also have a beardie

of the most moronic I have ever read on this forum. GUTLOAD=FEED, who gives a rat's arse what you call it. Feed crickets every day....HEALTHY NUTRITIONAL CRICKETS. Starve crickets and feed only just before feeding off....NUTRITIONALLY DEFICIENT, UNHEALTHY FOOD ITEMS. NUTRITIONAL CRICKETS=HEALTHY MONITOR. NUTRITIONALLY DEFICIENT CRICKETS=UNHEALTHY MONITOR.
A no brainer and a moot argument. As usual the point is lost in a bunch of long winded posts over whos is right and why. Seriuosly folks, nobody with half a brain has to hatch and raise a thousand monitors to figure this one out.

the most moronic I have ever read on this forum. GUTLOAD=FEED, who gives a rat's arse what you call it. Feed crickets every day....HEALTHY NUTRITIONAL CRICKETS. Starve crickets and feed only just before feeding off....NUTRITIONALLY DEFICIENT, UNHEALTHY FOOD ITEMS. NUTRITIONAL CRICKETS=HEALTHY MONITOR. NUTRITIONALLY DEFICIENT CRICKETS=UNHEALTHY MONITOR.

I agree it's kinda moronic, to make such a big deal about it. To tell people not to 'gutload', when I for one, thought that meant, to feed them well, is the moronic part. How many people actually go and look up the definition of the word 'gutload', before feeding their crickets? I know I didn't. I figured, once I get them home, I provide them with plenty of nutritious food, then they can cram as much as possible in their gobs, so they're fat and juicy by the time they become dinner.
Not all petstores bother to feed their crickets well, as I've noticed when I get them home,they huddle around the feed source and water, as if they had either been overcrowded, or just not provided enough good food. In this case, I can only see 'gutloading/feeding well', as a positive thing.

What are you saying???? you know more about monitors, then those that do have them and have shown a history of success, without doing what your thinking.

The real problem here is, monitors ARE NOT RESPONDING to bearded dragon husbandry. They have several key differences. Its here that your thoughts become very theoretical and non effective.

Now I am wondering, what do you say to people on the bearded forums that talk like they know what they are doing and argue with you, and they never kept a beardie?????? What you would say?

"I joined in on this conversation because people were adressing gutloading and uv for all reptiles as a whole."

-taken out of my last post

But, the terms "gutloading", "powerfeeding", and "light cycles" are always misused, or the actions involved are used wrongly.
Gut loading is not needed, UV bulbs are not needed, feeding your prey animals good food all of the time, also feeding your reptiles plenty of food and making better use of their heat sources to maximize growth/health potential with other good husbandry practices are whats needed.
Placing a bandaid on a serious laceration is not a permanent fix.
Simply put.

Hundreds of thousands of reptile owners come to these forums constantly, they stick around for a few months, or a year at most. Most of these keepers come here with problems, or for advice on something they are far from seeing ever happen. They dont realize the problems in their husbandry, and its always the typical issues with following petstore advice. These people argue that they are right, and that they read it in a book, or that they were told by their local petstore "reptile expert" that what they sell is needed, and nothing else.
A very good friend had a reptile rescue for many many years, they recieved and cared for thousands of reptiles of all species. The majority of these animals came from homes with aquarium/petstore caging, the animals always had UV lights, those that were fed insects were fed meticulously gut-loaded insects, those tegus a and monitors were fed a broad range of catfoods, dogfoods, fruits, veggies, canned monitor/tegu diets, and everything else the local "reptile expert" told them was right. Beardies were fed pelleted food, kept in sterile environments, under UV bulbs, fed little to no crickets, but other insects, typical beardie forum advice, under low basking temps, under higher air temps, etc. Almost every one of these animals was dieing, had MBD, impactions, were dull colored, stuck sheds, parasite problems (even with repeated treatments)you name it.
All were set up in simple homemade environments with broad temp ranges, high basking temps, useful substrates, and most with 24/7 basking lights (not one UV bulb on the property). With very very few exceptions that were too far gone, all recovered in no time at all and looked like completely different animals in a few weeks to a few months.
I dont need statistics to prove anything, or publications, I have firsthand experience caring for these animals, setting cages up, and watching them recover.
On the other hand, the typical forum poster that does as I described above comes and goes with their reptile here in weeks, months, to a year, some a few years, 90% go with the death of their monitor and confused as to why the advice their local "reptile expert" told them killed their monitor, because they thought they were proving a point by standing their ground and arguing that they were right and refused to learn.
You know I posted at one time on the beardie forum, I was called every name in the book and then some, and accused of abusing my beardies with the captive care I provided, in that time I had raised a hatchling female to 10 months old, in the next years time she layed 226 plus eggs, I fed most of the eggs off to monitors and tegus to reduce the numbers my friend had to sell. My beardies grew huge in a hurry, ate alot of crickets, roaches, and some veggies. A year after I stopped posting on that forum because of the constant abuse from the "experts" several posters there asked for help for their poor sickly dieing beardie, the advice I gave had them up and breeding big fat healthy beardies in no time at all, 5 of which had similar results to myself, 220 plus eggs in a years time per female. I personally dont understand how the big name breeders can sell beardies for the prices that they do, I bought some years ago for $10-$25 each, $70 was the most I spent on one.
Imagine if every reptile keeper stopped buying useless petstore profit making products, and followed useful advice, we would never need to import another reptile from overseas, we would be drowning in excess captive bred reptiles.

could please define gutlaoding? from what i gather gut loading mans feeding starving crickets a feed mix right before you feed them to your reptile. however if you keep them well fed before you feed them then thats the best. if gut loading is the definition that i just gave then i dont understand the logic behind it. its stupid. however i do use fluckers food to feed the crickets. i also ise vegtables and fruit as well along with the gut loading mix. I have collareds lizards ( dont have a monitor) so crickets are their staple food and i have to buy a lot of crickets. its in my best interest to keep them alive, so i feed them pretty much every day. Im sure using a gut loading mix as a food for the crickets cannot be all that bad. im pretty new to herping so im not sure ifs god bad or doesnt matter, but i do feed my crickets, and i dont "gut load" as the term implies. it makes sense to me. if you put hungry crickets in a lizard tank then they will bite and eat whatever they come across. that means my lizards!! also eachother. so i feed them.

In terms of UVB its strongly defended on the collared forum, maybe because collareds need different husbandry than a monitor, but their are many people there that have breed and raised collareds (not myself) and have used UVB. UVB may not be neccesary for all retiles but i cant imagine that it is bad or uneccesary all togeather. of course proper husbandry is a big deal.

More things I do not understand

A couple of things, I use ground up dogfood for cricket feed. I have kept and raised/produced crickets for many many years. I have fed these dogfood crickets to monitors and other lizards for those same many many years. And for this I got what is considered superior results.

Also, I have only been keeping and breeding monitors(bred over twenty species) since 1991. But before that, I kept bred and produced many generations of lots of other lizards, including collards. I bred those since back in the late sixties, off and on for many decades. And all without UVB bulbs, vitamins or gutloading.

In fact, my monitor husbandry was developed for other snake and lizard husbandry. That is, give them choices and see what works best. Snakes are no so demostrative so its a little hard to tell what they want(just a little) but many lizards, like monitors and crots, tell you exactly what they want. If you give them hot spots over 125F they both happily used them. Over 150F, Monitors kept on using them. Crots backed away, a little. They do know what they want. We are only guessing.

The point of that is, both types of lizards exsist in enviornments that "have/need" to include temps above what they will use. Thats how they are designed to work(exsist).

They are not designed to work in temps that only max out at their basic needs. This is the problem with current husbandry. A huge mistake in thinking.

In a nutshell, our local lizards do not start their breeding season until the daytime temps keep them holed up for most of the day, as in, its too hot to go in the sun or sunny areas(basking areas) During their season of actual progress, that is, growth and reproduction, Its so hot, they do not need to bask. During this time, the normal daily temps keep them in the shade for most of the day.

Yes, both types of these lizards will bask, but mostly in spring where prolonged basking is to ready their bodies for the upcoming active season(when its hot).

The problem with captivity is, most duplicate spring. When you should be duplicating summer. In summer, they have choices and are not forced to risk their lives to attempt to gain needed heat.

Oh by the way, we have crots within a stones throw of my house, and leopard lizards, and DI's.

The actual point is, I have raised beardeds, crots, many many varanids, and many more, super successfully, without the use of UV type bulbs, and without the practice of gutloading.

With that in mind, why do others "need" these things, If I not only have no problems, not using them, but have very good results without using them??? The question all of you SHOULD be asking is, why aren't my lizards falling victum to lack of commerical support. Why aren't they suffering the problems yours seem to suffer?

You see, this is a bit like the myth buster show. You only have to show one exception to bust a myth. The problem here is, I have busted those myths for decades with multitudes of different species. Also, we continue to bust those myths on a daily basis.

Lets use one tiny example. If you take one other monitor producer out of the question, Rare Earth with their original owner, we have produced and raised, raised means having monitors grow from hatchlings to many types that size, more monitors then the entire rest of the U.S. put together, and that INCLUDES zoos and universities. And all were done with incandesent normal cheap bulbs. Consider, to double or triple or more your body size means doing the same to your skeleton, which is the "greatest" need for calicum placement.

To make is a little more lopsided, we never have calicum def. desease. And we never gutload, and we do not have vitamin deficency problems either. You folks really need to learn why.

So that without question makes me wonder, what the holy heck are you all doing to "need" these things. Why all the problems? or why do you think you will have problems if you do not use them? You see, I do not understand why you or all these others, have problems, or preceive your going to have problems.

Its kinda like telling a Tarahumara indian runner he "needs" nike running shoes to run or his feet will fall off. Hmmmmmmm these folks have been running throught the mountains and deserts barefooted since before Nike was nike, and before the founders of Nike's parents were even born. Or their parents parents parents were born, etc etc.

Of course, if you do not allow them to run barefoot and MAKE them wear shoes since they were kids, then they will need those shoes.

The question is, why make them need something, they actually do not need??????? Why make them dependant on something they naturally never had and do not need? That is a great question. So anyone care to support the otherside of this question? Why not allow them to do what they do naturally, as opposed of bandaiding them with products that they clearly do not need.

So no, I am not telling you anything, I am asking you to explain why YOU NEED THIS STUFF? Explain please, Cheers

alright i can see that you have rasied many reptiles without UVB and you contend that UVB is just a bandage for poor husbandry, but if the person has good husbandry and uses uvb doe that matter? is uvb going to make a difference. couldnt it only be benificial to the animal to have it along with good husbandry. UVB is said to be benificial, but does anyone have proof thats its harmful to reptiles? All your saying is that uvb is a bandage and that repitles die from poor husbandry not neeccesarily from the uvb, so is uvb in itself harmful? If not then along with good husbandry im sure people can maintain even healthier lizards.

by the way i understand what your saying about summer temps and spring temps, im going try and raise my temps in the summer, see if i can get some breeding.

As much as I wanted to stay clear for fear of another train wreck, I see where this is turning all confusing. PLEASE correct me if I got this wrong.

for a MONITOR crickets provide more usefulness in exercise value, preventing obesity by chasing bugs, be it crickets or roaches. The REAL nutritional value is the rodents, so why worry about fancy cricket feed when dealing with MONITORS.

The care of GREEN lizards, primarily Iguanas and Anoles in a strictly indoor environment does warrant UVB and calcium foods, but Green species are not monitors.

Husbandry for other animals does not apply 100 per cent to monitors. not even close, keeping clean cages and water is about it.

So the bottom line is MONITORS that are fed properly do not NEED anything special added to their insects. Just lively fast bugs to keep them fit by chasing them.

Where I got derailed was that I feed the same crickets to several different species of animals, so I will most likely use the same feed, but for monitors, a bug is a bug as long as it runs..............

In a nutshell, is that about right?

BTW are night crawlers OK? chomper loves whipping them around, and they are chock full of protein.

Peace,
Wayne A. Harvey

-----

1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cane" Rescue
1.2.3 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids (30 plus released!)
0.0.2 Thamnophis marcianus - Checkered Garters "spot" & "Zig"
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua" adult WC
0.1.0 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snake (Her children were raised & released)
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
1.0.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Growing fast!
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
2.1.0. calico RATS
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

In a nutshell, no. "Green" Lizards can live in the same footprint you can keep a Monitor (Snakes, Crocodilians, Chelonians etc. ) in. I've done it for years with no issues. UVB/UVA is a captive fallacy. With a proper Thermal gradient, substrate, cover, water etc. they will do just fine with ambient light. Instead of gawking and shuffling around the subject, why not setup one of your "Green" lizards ( whether it be an carnivorous or omnivorous - never met a Lizard that was a true Vegetarian ) in the "Monitor" footprint and see how it does? BTW, my "Green" Lizards and Crickets eat Mazuri Tortoise food exclusively, are they not suspossed to do that?

"why not setup one of your "Green" lizards ( whether it be an carnivorous or omnivorous - never met a Lizard that was a true Vegetarian ) in the "Monitor" footprint and see how it does?"

My little Anole tank sits next to my computer, at first she was a whim purchase that the kid lost interest in so I wound up with her.

It makes me smile when she sits on her limb and bobs her head. I couldn't picture her in anything less than her limb and plants, essential since she licks he water off the plants.

My good friend Suzanne has 2 Iguanas (forever now) that have their own "Florida room" with skylights trees, the works. And until the day I can do that I'd prefer not to have one.

Now Chomper on the other hand lives in a box 4 feet wide, 2 deep and 2 tall. I have purchased the building materials, and got VERY lucky to score these awesome safety glass panels for the front. (I attached a picture) His permanent home will be as close to his natural environment as I can possibly emulate.

One whole corner of our reptile room will be enclosed with 3/4 MDF with this great steel framing I found at the scrap yard and one of these glass doors for a front window.

I read all sorts of posts, and try to come up with a common denominator that makes sense, and the only way to clarify is open discussions, even when there seems to be 20 different opinions to work with.

In the end, the pets all benefit the most especially if the information gets absorbed, remembered and ultimately utilized correctly. (by me of course)

Take care,
Wayne A. Harvey

-----

1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cane" Rescue
1.2.3 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids (30 plus released!)
0.0.2 Thamnophis marcianus - Checkered Garters "spot" & "Zig"
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua" adult WC
0.1.0 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snake (Her children were raised & released)
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
1.0.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Growing fast!
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
2.1.0. calico RATS
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

I agree with the above, I have kept and raised many species of green lizards in the exact same way I keep monitors, and they too never needed or suffered in anyway from not having a UV bulb.

Also, when given a temperature range to pick from, things like iggies became less veggie and more lizard and bird feeders. Hmmmmmmm I also keep a breed a few torts and they too readily consume mice and crickets. They also consume the plants they are suppose(human opinion) consume.

A little history. When I started here, it was widespread that Savs could not consume mice, it gave them fatty liver desease. Look at older books, it was common knowledge. Also at the time, any basking area over 90F was considered insane.

But as soon as basking areas above 120F and averaging 135F became common(offered and promoted by me) fatty liver desease disappeared.

It does appear, under low temps, high protein food, rodents, birds, lizards, etc, are not properly assimulated and do cause liver problems. It appears thats so for more then monitors.

It was said that feeding high protien and or mice to torts will kill them too. And I am sure it did under low temps. It was said feeding mice to iggies would kill them too, and I am sure under low temps it would. The cure is simple, do not build a world around low temps. It is so stinking simple to allow any of these reptiles a little bit of a choice and see if they make them.

The reality was, if we offered Chams, torts, iggies, and monitors, hi basking temps, the dang things used them and used them to BROADEN their abilities.

The results were, they grew like rocketships, they produced like pez despencers, they lost all those silly problems like Respitory infections, mouthrot, MBD, and they could consume a much wider varity of food/prey without incurring any problems. Even things that were considered poor diets. like ungutloaded crickets. It appears it wasn't the crickets fault, it was the dang keepers REFUSING TO MEED THE ACTUAL mechanical needs of these reptiles.

My problem is and always has been, if I have a question, I ask the animals. That means, If I go to central america and see iggies, which I have seen in most of their range, or anoles and these animals commonly seek hot temps. I will believe those wild iggies, over some "nice fella" in a northern city. No offense.

A few months ago, I again visited several central american countries, and a few islands, like the dutch antillies. I took some pics of GREEN iggies basking/seeking extreme heat. One was a four footer, sitting on top this shingled roof, the temps were in the 90's, the roof was in the sun and it was SUNNY. I should have taken my heat gun, as WE ALL KNOW that roof was bloody hot. Well that stupid iggie stayed there all day. My question is, why is it still alive? Then I went to a Jeep rental company and its parking lot was full of iggies. I was taking pics of them and one of the workers asked me why. I told him, oh in the states, people thing iggies do not like heat, because they come from the jungle, he belly laughed and said, oh them americans.(we think we know everything, WHEN WE DON'T)

And yes, i do have pics.

To actual point is, when these animals are offered something that includes nearly a full range of that whey need, they behave and perform differently then when they are restricted to a tiny narrow band.

When in that tiny narrow band, we must administer all manner of fix it, cure it, and other(visits to the vet) in order to have them exsist.

No offense to your friend Susan, but having a few iggies for a few years is not accomplishment. And that is the big problem. All reptiles lifes are based on accomplishments.

They hatch, they grow up, they reach maturity, they perform as productive adults, they grow old, they die. They then have their offspring do it all over again. These I call "basic life events" Of course each catagory has lots and lots of levels of success. As in quality of each event.

But sadly, we are not here measuring who is more successful or recieving the best quality of these basic life events. As It appears I and a few others are the only few to even reach the bottom rung on the monitors basic life events. YET, its those have recieve less then those events that think they "know". They achieve a few years of life from an animals that can live for decades and they call that success. Sir, that is sad. Then they fight tooth and claw. And as you and others, fight in the face of superior longterm consistant results. And you think I am rude??????? You really need to think about this last sentence.

The ruddness is from beginers telling and fighting with those with longtern successful history. Thats rude, actually its more then rude. And yes, after decades of this, the frills have worn off my sword. I hope to allow you to learn or stop keeping monitors(killing them)

There have been several ladies here that nutured newbies, you know, baby them. of course that did not work. And once those ladies monitors died, they too disappeared. Or they grew tired of failing in their attempts to nuture.

Truthfully, I think I treat you as equals, I offer the information, and I expect you to "think about it" I do not have any need to baby you, or treat you with kid gloves. I will treat you as a mature adult. Thats what I would want and expect.

A funny thought, I or others, can write a great post, full of very useful information. All we need to do is include one little tiny slight or possible slight, or even offer the ability for the reader to almost feel slighted or offended. The following result is, 99.5648 percent of the time, the follow up post completely ignores all useful information and dwells on that slight or possible slight. Then it becomes a peawater match. Stick around, you will see it.

The ACTUAL truth is, if your a beginer, or you come here with a problem(help my monitor is dying/sick/comstipated) any useful information offered, will of course cause the person with the problem to feel slighted or offended. As they will be offered something that they should have already known. And, And, if that information is plain and simple and common sense, they then feel totally stupid and get totally peawatered off.

Well, thats natural. But there really is nothing I can do about it. You/they should get peawatered off, just not at me. ITs kinda a kick the gifthorse syndrome.

With all the mucky muck said, heres a "thought" you said you love to see your anole on its branch bobbing its head and popping is bubble(ok, I added that) You love that for many reasons. Its kinda what they do.

Yet, Your sav. used the earth like an anole uses bushes, yet you do not give it the earth it uses. They spend 90% or more of their active life underground like gophers or moles. Would you keep a gopher or mole in a cage without the ability to make their burrows/homes? Cheers

for a MONITOR crickets provide more usefulness in exercise value, preventing obesity by chasing bugs, be it crickets or roaches. The REAL nutritional value is the rodents, so why worry about fancy cricket feed when dealing with MONITORS.

What about tiny hatchlings? All they can eat is bugs. I would think it's important they get nutritious ones, rather than just any old thing you might throw in to give them some 'exercise'.

If crushed dogfood is a good staple for crickets, then that's what I'll use to feed mine and thank you for the tip!

As for UVB/full spectrum light, I'll continue using, because that 'is' something they would be getting in nature, even though they don't need it to grow, or breed in captivity. I just don't see the point in depriving them of that, as well as their freedom.

Susan.

Totally forgot, when Chomper arrived he was probably a month or so old.

The first 3 weeks I fed only crickets and meal worms. We breed mice, and he certainly looked big enough, so I tossed him a newborn pink, he now eats about 4-5 pinks a week, plus crickets.

He likes the night crawlers too.

I don't bother with "dusting" and when this bottle of flukers is used up, I'll just use the worm food (a cheap crushed grain crude high protein food) My Asian green snake only eats night crawlers, so I have a ton of them around to feed anyways.

Take care,
Wayne
-----

1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cane" Rescue
1.2.3 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids (30 plus released!)
0.0.2 Thamnophis marcianus - Checkered Garters "spot" & "Zig"
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua" adult WC
0.1.0 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snake (Her children were raised & released)
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
1.0.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Growing fast!
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
2.1.0. calico RATS
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

From reading the list of what you keep, your into specialist. That is, you pick specialist, amoung specialist. All snakes are far more specialized then most lizards. That is, they have evolved into tigher more specific nitches, which includes are far more restricted diet.

The important thought is, amoungst lizards, varanids are the amoung the most GENERALIZED of the lizards, all species have normal lizard builds, normal tails, normal legs, normal structure, etc. There are no two legged varanids, or legless varanids adapted to a specialized or restricted habitat.

The main variation in varanids is size, there are little tiny species, less then a foot long. To large species over 8 feet long, and both extremes have the same well developed parts.

Also all species have a wide range of what they consume. All will readily take all manner of prey, from insects, to fish, birds, mammals, crustations, etc. and even plants and fruit.

Which by the species you keep is very very generalized. Many snake species are restricted to one of two of the catagories mentioned above. Many are restricted to small parts of one catagory. NOT VARANIDS, if it moves, or not, its food.

Of course in a specific local, they key on what is easy and abundant, they tend to work a specific prey type in their habitat until it runs out, then move on to another until it runs out, etc. Anyway, just something I thought would interest you considering your choice of snake species(which I love by the way). Cheers

You don't see the point of depriving them of UB bulbs, because they use that in nature.

Think please, what else are you depriving them off??? You and others seem to pick one little item and forget about all the rest your depriving them off. That is the entire point of this thread. Your depriving them of their REAL needs and giving them something you "think" they need, and only think they need it because of what you read in the advertising pages.

What they need is very simple, Its what they all seek in nature. They need a full range of temps to complete a full range of normal life events. They need a way to control a balance of temps and humidity. Not one temp or one level of humidity, a choice. This I call physical security. They then need pyshological or mental security. Which is the need to secure a basic home or homes that give them the feeling of safety from predators and includes the physical securities mentioned above. With these basic factors, they then "need" to fill the tank, that is, eat any and all foods they can stuff into their stomachs. And no, they are not picky about this.

That is what they need. Yet, beginers(ones lacking longterm or any successful results) think UV bulbs are what they need. Hmmmmmmmmm I find that odd.

The absolute truth is, monitors spend 99 or more % of their total life, NOT in UV. So why do you think its what they do in nature???? Of course, on the rare occasion that monitors get cold(they occur in hot areas of the world) they will seek the brightest areas to heat up. As soon as they reach working temps, they avoid lite and open areas. In most of the year, there is no need to seek these bright areas. Of course of the sixty something species, there are a small number of exceptions, the one species that occurs to the farthest north, or the one to the farthest south, may have a higher percentage in the sun. Or ones around water, you know the ones with elephant hide for skin, and the ability to cool off by jumping in the water. Or maybe the giant ones like KDs, They may be slight exceptions. But then, would you base your knowledge on any subject, on the few exceptions, or on the bulk of the subject? I hope common sense would apply here.

It does seem that failure causes folks to seek exceptions and not norms. Cheers

monitors spend 99 or more % of their total life, NOT in UV. So why do you think its what they do in nature????

99% or more? I find that hard to believe, but if you say so, I'll accept it.
You don't mind if, even though you're telling me all this, I continue to use UVB, do you?
As, it's a choice I made and unless I see it's actually harming my monitors, I'd like to let them use it, even if it is for less than 1% of the time

Thanks!
Susan.

I do not care what you personally do, but remember, these threads rarely benefit or hurt the folks doing them.

Its others who read this and pick a direction based on someones ability to transmit ideas.

In most cases, newbies decisions are based on hopes and wishes. With one basic thought, if I pay more it must be better. Or if I see someone promoting it in a reptile mag.

The problem is, I have been around a very long time, and many of those fine faces you see in advertisements, never used the product, until after they were successful and were paid to do so. In fact(some) reptile mags use articules that promote the products their advertisers sell, they then place those products on the same page.

You do not see articules by folks who do not recomend the products that SUPPORT AND PAY those mags. I am not judging those mags, they are supported by high profit products, and sadly, breeding reptiles is not high profit. Like with everything, there are a few exceptions. But I do not think its sound to base your hopes and goals on the exception.

Anyway, your supporting your choices, which is great, but your not supporting them with results. Again thats also great, except when there are results you can compare them too. And here is where I am the punk.

Because I have longterm repeated success with the raising and breeding and longevity of monitors. I have an unfair advantage. If I bring up my unfair advantage, I become the bad guy.

The truth is, you HAVE to base your choices on the results they yield. For instance, after a few years your monitors do not progress at all and you see our monitors grow up and reproduce and those babies grow up and reproduce, and such, you will have to wonder, WHY are yours not doing so. Consider, with no effort at all, all species from the smallest to the largest(albigs, croc monitors, lace monitors) Grow to adulthood and reproduce in a years time. Some of the small ones go egg to egg in four months. Again without the aid of UV bulbs, gutloading, other commerical products.

As I mentioned, what good is it promoting things that do not help and do not harm. The answer is zero good. In an area where the average sav dies in less then three months. With very very few lasting a year, and none, zero zilch(that I have heard of) breaking the decade mark. Now for comparison, folks say having them multiclutch all the time shortens their life. Yet, I have ackies that multiclutched since they were less then a year old, and are still alive at 16 yrs of age. I have a gouldi group cross that just successfully laid her 60th clutch and is nine years old, and working on 61.

Again, all without paying any attention to those products. What would you have me think?

Then consider, its been over a decade of folks like you(nice reasonable folks) saying the same thing as you, only to have their animals fail, time and time again, and it appears there are no exceptions. Susan, that is plain sad.

I do not think its difficult to keep monitors, they are so strong and easy. So, why all the failure.

With somewhere around 250,000 savs imported a year, WHERE THE HECK ARE THEY? Thats a possibility of 125,000 pairs. hahahahaha lets not go there.

In the fifteen years I have been on this forum, there have been five or six clutches of savs. One person had a female lay some of those, they hatched some, wrote a book, the female died. The other did the same thing, only did not write a book. Both keepers are really nice people, but one season does not make knowledge and understanding. But I wander.

The point is, WHATS THE DEAL, if these fine products work?

I know, I know, you want your animals to be happy. Consider what makes them happy, TO SUCCEED, makes them happy, very happy. I can explain this in greater detail if you like.

They do not read books, they do not go to plays, Their life is accomplishing their lifes goals. Just a hint, I have never seen more satisfaction/joy/whatever you want to call it, then seeing a female monitor after she easily and successfully nested. They almost appear proud. Then they do it all over as fast as they can. Cheers

these threads rarely benefit or hurt the folks doing them.

Its others who read this and pick a direction based on someones ability to transmit ideas.

In some ways, posts such as mine and others you respond to with such passion, may actually help the 'others who read and pick a direction' based on your ability to transmit your ideas.
I have zero problem with that and just hope that eventually, your transmitted ideas start to show just a glimmer of the success, your results in breeding monitors has.

Susan.

sssssssssssss

Thanks, I only wish the level of success was high enough that we could talk about the drawbacks and advantages of many different successful methods. And there are indeed many different ways to accomplish decent success.

Thats showed the sucess of a few breeders who according to the article in the magazine, use outdoor caging, and never use a bulb. Yet the ad says that they use or support the use of the bulbs from their sucess.

This is a bit like playing checkers, If a keeper came in and showed decent success with breeding and keeping MONITORS, and they said, I do use UV bulbs for reasons of aesthetics(because it looks better) Then I would say, good on you. I would not argue that point, it does look better.

But if they come in and say, it WORKS better, I will argue that point all day long. Because then they would have to outdo the results we have seen here, all without the use of UV bulbs. So far, no one has.

Its not about me being egotistical because of our results, its because, they are the ones who SAY ITS NEEDED.

Which means they are saying its required. Yet none of those saying that have actually obtained even the most average of results. So any thinking person would have to ask, Why do you think its needed, when you have not obtained decent successful results.

About harmful, Any decent UVA or UVB bulb, that is one that actually puts out more then a normal bulb, has a WARNING, do not stare into the light. It can cause blindness. Do they cause blindness in reptiles, heck if I know.

But the point is, they are not needed, not do they cause harm. The state of varanid keeping is so poor(lack of normal life events) that We as a whole should be looking for tools that cause a better captive life, not a placeholder that does no harm.

As I started with this thread, why not use the money for a bigger cage, monitors can always use a bigger cage. Or more food, monitors can always use more food. Or make a cage that includes deep substrate. Or or or many many other needed things. Not waste time and money on things "not" needed.

I think there is a big difference in success levels between this one(monitors) and other types of reptiles.

In most other areas, the keepers expect to breed those types, Here the most common expectation is for the monitor not to die quickly. Cheers

ok makes sense. i have no response. i really cant argue this cuz im a newbie, ill leave it up to veterans to debate it. i am simply asking questions about the issue. later!!

Sir I do stand corrected in a big way.....

I applaud your accomplishments, and people skills aside, your experience MANDATES that I pay attention and respect your views.

And since I do not plan on going away any day soon, we need to coexist as best we can.

I guess we can all become as stubborn as our monitors after a while

Peace,
Wayne A. Harvey
-----

1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cane" Rescue
1.2.3 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids (30 plus released!)
0.0.2 Thamnophis marcianus - Checkered Garters "spot" & "Zig"
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua" adult WC
0.1.0 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snake (Her children were raised & released)
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
1.0.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Growing fast!
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
2.1.0. calico RATS
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

Of rescued reptiles (all species represented)that were blind, or going blind, they lived for a period of time (varying) in cages with UV bulbs. I can only guess that these animals spent time too close, or climbing on the bulbs frequently.
Beyond this I cannot verify what other harm it can do.
Like FR mentioned, any decent UV bulb has a health warning that says it must be kept a certain distance from your skin, and your animals, it also says that you should never look directly at the bulb because they can cause blindness.
Now, consider this, the bulbs also say that you must mount them from 6 inches to 30 inches from the animal. During actual UV testing these bulbs produced such low incidnece of UV rays that the farthest any read anything close to usable was 3-6 inches away (the dangerous area).
Its not that we dont use them, or havent, its that we have tried them, and so have millions of other keepers, they show no real benefit. In fact I tried comparing cages with beardies kept under normal household bulbs, blacklight bulbs, and UV bulbs. There was no difference between the common bathroom flourescent bulb and the best UV bulbs.
If you want to spend you money wisely avoid them, use good husbandry. If you have hundreds of extra bucks to burn try them for yourself. First things first, your husbandry must be good enough that you dont see any reason to have them first before you add them.
Being involved with the pet industry (voluntarily) from a wholesale purchasing point of view once I saw the real pricing of those bulbs, and got the sales pitch about increased profit making products, about convincing your retail customers that they must spend $20-$30 every 3-6 months to keep their reptiles healthy in the name of profit.
That business allowed me to get those bulbs for the same price as normal household bulbs if I wanted them.

Ok, FR, I agree with what you are saying about gut loading. Earlier I thought that you were saying that you really werent giving the crickets anything, but now that youve made it clear... The gut loading products arent necessary, they just make it a bit easier for the beginner reptile owners that havent found the cheap strategies that weve found.

Now, I dont own monitors, so I will leave that subject alone. But people are bringing up other lizards, and I will tell you... I do not own a huge amount of reptiles. I have a lot, but a small enough number to pay attention to each one individually. Ive noticed from my own experiences, that when I introduce a uv bulb to a reptile that has not had any. Their activity levels increase and they just seem happier and healthier to me.

If peoples lizards are going blind and burning from these things, they do not know proper husbandry. You have to know your bulb and your lizard. Frilleds stay in the trees most of the time so they get small amounts of uv in the wild. So I usually only have the uv bulb on for 3 hours a day for them. Sailfins need more so maybe 6. Beardies, 10 hours. But I have noticed an increase in thier well being. The truth is, mercury vapor bulbs should not be used as basking spots imo. They will cause blindness, and skin damage as well. But knowing where to place it and when to turn it on and off is the key.

I will recall times when I switched from a 5.0 flourescent to a 10.0, and in maybe 2 days period, the activity levels increased, and the lizards looked healthy and happier. I pay a lot of attention to them, so I would know. And you have to keep in mind, its not just the reptile supply industry telling people that these things are benficial- its zoos, zoologists, biologists, ecologists, veterinarians, etc. They dont get anything if those bulbs fly off the shelves. Those people go into those fields because they genuinly care about the animals, and they do research, and they find that the animals do better off.

Just because you do not have uv bulbs does not mean reptiles wont live long lives. Just like a child that doesnt drink 4 glasses of milk a day- he or she wont die at a young age because of that, but will the calcium make the kid stronger and healthie? yes it will. That is what I have found with reptiles. Again, I dont know monitors, but I know a lot about what I keep.

One more thing...You do not need to dish out too much money for uv bulbs. A 125 watt murcury vapor bulb found here http://www.reptilesupply.com/product.php?products_id=2183 will cost you 25 dollars, and it can last for years if used for only a few hours of the day as I mentioned earlier. This bulb http://www.reptilesupply.com/product.php?products_id=1083, great for tropical styled lizards will cost you a little more than 10 dollars and will also last for a long time especially if only used a few hours a day. If you buy them in large orders as I do from a local reptile shop, its even less per bulb. Some even come will warranties. Its not like if you buy these you have to give up the larger enclusure or sell you car to pay for it. Its the art of perfecting an already good husbandry practice, making your reptile as healthy and happy as you can.

And the bulbs do not effect them as much as you are thinking they are.
Ive tried UV bulbs, equivalent household bulbs, blacklights, etc, etc. All the same wattages, the same size with the same temperatures and no differences occur period. If you remove the flourescent bulb you must account for the temperature change without the bulb present, yes they do make alot more heat than you could imagine. I have an albig that as a hatchling used to bask on top of a flourescent light assembly, nowhere near the bulbs, the temperature on that surface was 122 f. The air around the light is increased several degress and thoughout the entire area around the light.
If you make comparisons, you must make them equal and accurate, without the flouescent light you must account for its loss by increasing temps the same way with another source.
I have used 24/7 basking lights on all reptiles for many years now, why is it that I see better results than before I used them?
Its not the UV bulb that does the trick. This was proven many times by independant comparisons, and actual measurements on these bulbs. By the way I could buy those bulbs for $1-3 for tubes, and $5-7 for MV bulbs that sold for 4-5 times those prices.
Its not just monitors, without UV I had beardies kept in many ways similar to monitors produce hundreds of eggs a year, geckos, you name it. We tried this with snakes at a friends for years. Its not just monitors or carnivores, or specific species. Im talking 20 plus years of seeing results with hundreds of species in many collections that use the same simple no frills ideas.
Youve been convinced by sales tactics that you need the equipment that makes those companies money, you see results that are flawed and it supports what they say. Try for yourself, make sure that all comparisons are equal to make an assumption of a product being beneficial.

So what your saying is, our multitude of generations of monitors are NOT HEALTHY and happy, because we do not use UV bulbs.

On this point, I will argue with you all day long and while I am arguing, we will be raising dozens of monitors and they will quickly and efficently grow up and lay lots more babies. And sir, that is the reality.

Many have come and gone with your exact same arguement, yet they are gone and their animals are gone, all the while we are efficently raising and producing and achieving longevity records.

So what IS HAPPY AND HEALTHY exactly???

You need to look at the key points

Healthy and happy--->Healthier and happier

Good husbandry--->Better husbandry

I take good care of my reptiles. Big enclosures, monitor temps and humidity, etc. So your telling me that my reptiles are going to die because of the uv bulb. Is that the argument you are trying to make? Or something like... if I use uv bulbs I must not know good husbandry so being with an idiot like me they are all on a downward spiral.

Wow...thats pretty strange, because the only thing I ever had die on me was a boa that couldnt past the baby stage. And I dont use uv for that so it cant be uv. You say many people just like me have come and gone... yea maybe on the monitor forums, go to other forums and youll find people that know what theyre talking about. Peace.

If you want to compare results you must do so with all faucets of husbandry being equal, then add in the UV bulbs, add in the gutload products, and the other fancy petstore products, then compare the results.
If you are using husbandry that works or is good, then you add in these products to compare, you can then compare the differences. If not you are hoping these products are filling in weak points in your husbandry and it is much less than adequate therefore needs changed.
Im not saying that you should never use these products, but I am saying that you should get good results without them, then experiment from there.
I have never found one species of reptile that needs these products, and with proper husbandry Ive never seen one that shows any benefit from them.
By the way in the years Ive posted here, and the many years Ive kept monitors I have noticed simply that the average monitor keeper that has at least minute sucess has spent years keeping (very sucessfully) many other reptile species. If you look at the other forums you will see most are full of the newest reptile keepers, also some business/breeders that are trying to promote the use of overpriced pet products as needed aspects of husbandry.
A few years ago someone who studies monitors in the wild, keeps them in captivity, writes articles and books about them, wrote a great post about light intensity and how it effects reptiles. The post compared the intensities of these bulbs (that UV levels are useless to make any difference) to sunlight at various times of day, after reading it you would understand why these bulbs make no difference compared to any other bulb, simply put a bulb is a bulb is a bulb, none are the sun.
This discussion has gone on here hundreds of times in the past, to this day the only differences are the names of those who preach the use of those bulbs, the facts have not changed, nor have the results.

Ya think money might have something to do with it?
If your so called gut loading,you have to spend more cash on extra food.

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