Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey peeps-

I have a 2006 2.2 group of Creamsicle x Reverse Okeetees that I brumated this past winter---and I'm pretty sure that one gal is ovulating---or gravid--I dunno. Can you let me know what you think?

Here's pair #1. The female is the higher white one. She ate a small hopper 2 days ago--but she's much less plump than the gal in pair #2. I have switched to 1/3 sized meals for all my female breeders.

This is pair #2. She's meaty. She ate a small mouse hopper 2 days ago just like female #1. I am wondering if she's gravid or just ovulating?

I can feel follicles in female #2. I'm not so sure about #1.

Is it ok for me to separate pair #2 for the season yet?

Thanks for your input--yo.

Mark
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Mark

It's too hard to tell. In most cases when looking at photos it's inconclusive if a female is gravid unless it's at the later stages when it's pretty obvious. Neither of my creamsicles have had their eggs yet, so I wouldn't be too worried.

It's easier to tell if a female is gravid by feeling the eggs, which will cause the female to be firm rather than soft. By letting the snake crawl through your fingers you can sometimes not only feel, but be able to count the eggs - though this takes some practice.

Tim

Third Eye

I would only seperate them to feed them and to give them a rest.Looks like #2 is ovulating so never assume its gravid untill she is bucking the male off her.

L8r Shannon

you said they are 2006? Its not wise to breed 2 year old corns.

I have to say the bottom one in the last pic looks gravid, but as the others have said, its hard to tell in pics
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****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"The more things change, the more they remain Insane"

Yep--they are 06. I didn't think I would breed them this year but I had some friends over this past winter---some guys that have been doing this for almost as long as I've been alive--and they said I would be a fool not to breed them because of their size at the time. So these were actually put into brumation in January.

They forced me---yep they did!!!

I appreciate you all checking these out and letting me know what you think.

Pair #1 just did it. LOL. I accidentally put my hand in "it" when I was checking the newspaper....
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Mark

there is nothing wrong with breeding 18 month old corns.
Please show me some proof thats its not good.

L8r Shannon

I don't know that there is any proof but I assume it is similar to the issues with breeding rainbow boa's at 2 years instead of waiting till 3 or later. You can do it but it normally results in smaller clutches, increased rate of complications, and slower recovery time for the female to bounce back.

Also, while still anecdotal, most of the very expewrienced corn breeders that I have discussed it with wait until the corns are at least 3 if not 4 or more years old. They said it was to get larger clutches with higher viability while at the same time maximizing the number of years for production from each breeder. The argument being that just like power feeding in some species seems to shorten total life span the strain of breeding before fully mature will shorten the breeding span and life span of the snake.

While neither argument is one I have seen proof for they are both arguments I see/hear very regularly from the breeders I talk to who have been breeding snakes for a long time.

Also keep in mind that when talking about establishing a new gene or morph the longevity concerns tend to be thrown out the window in favor of solidifying the morph.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

I think it's one of those "you say tomatoe, I say tomahtoe" type things.

A lot of what I have read says that young corns can "skip their firsy winter of brumation to put on size." Then they are brumated and bred the next season.

I didn't mean to be so controversial.

Plus--everyone likes to do it--why deprive your snakes???
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Mark

Look, I let my snakes speak for themselves per say.When it comes to 18 month old girls I let the snakes decide.I breed many types of colubrids (and have for 25 years now)and every year I am floored on what will go and what won't.
If they are large enough and ovulate then I throw them in with a male.They are going to go through all the motions anyway so why not have fertile eggs apposed to slugs.
Anyway, when you know your snakes you will know.
I also have females that won't go for 3 to 4 years so I am not saying I breed everything at 2 years.Not even the case btw.

L8r Shannon

where people will do what they will, no matter what others say. You have your opinion, I have mine. No need to say more
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****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"The more things change, the more they remain Insane"

there are more than one reason to not breed an 18 month old FEMALE corn. an 18 month male corn is not a problem because they do not have to go through the stress of making eggs, laying them. Female corns, like anything that reproduces, has a lot of stress put on their bodies. Egg binding is one of the issues to breeding too young, infirtle eggs, causing a stunt in the growth is another.
In my opinion, breeding an 18 month old female corn is like breeding a 10 year old child. Yeah, they can do it, but its not healthy.
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****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"The more things change, the more they remain Insane"

It's not really the age but size that is important. Sexual maturity in colubrids is reached at certain sizes as opposed to a certain age as in mammals. I've had 18-20 month old females 40 inches long and they bred very well. On the other hand I have a slow grower female that is almost 3 yrs old and barely reaching 30 inches, she has not be bred yet and will not be until she reaches about 3 ft.

this has just been an eye openner for me. i thought the majority of the people followed the 3 year, 300 grams, 3 feet rule. I had never heard of anyone breeding a corn at 18 months! lol.
I understand the size issue, though.
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****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"The more things change, the more they remain Insane"

I am happy I could facilitate our learning.

Remind me not to let you know if I try to double clutch!!
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Mark

I have (and so have others) bred corns at 9 months as well as hognose.If fed god you can have a corn 40 inches in 18 months so why would you wait.It has nothing to do with age.

L8r