Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The below posts made me wonder, how many people actually breed their corns at 18 months - 2 years old?
I want honest answers. If you are ashamed to say that you do it, then maybe you shouldn't do it.
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****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"The more things change, the more they remain Insane"

all of mine are at least 3 years old

~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn(Just A Pet), A Ball Python, A Bearded dragon, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping turtle, and a white cheeked mud turtle

oops... except my males... i had an 05 male last year breed ...he was 2.... but that is something different...
~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn(Just A Pet), A Ball Python, A Bearded dragon, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping turtle, and a white cheeked mud turtle

I do it all the time......

I do it so they do not grow to be 4 and 5 foot corns......

Rich taught me that a looong time ago.......the boxes are small so breed them young and they stay smaller ....usually....not always......

.NOT ALL corns will breed that small.......some females just won't.......

mine average 20 months old.....I get from 8 eggs and usually 15 to 20 first time....
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......

I'm considering breeding my '07 Abbott's female in '09.

She's bigger than one of my female '06 Cal Kings (though smaller than the other).

She's the second biggest '07 snake I have - only my male '07 Brooksi is bigger.

She's bigger than my '07 MBKs and my '06 MBK was *almost* safe breeding size this year, not quite.

My other '07 female corns - no, I'm not going to breed them in '09.

I won't breed her if she isn't big enough though. I'm not in a rush, I just think she's got a good shot at being big enough.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

I have breed 3 females this year in that age range but all where over 36 inches long. They have all laid healthy although small cluthces (10-12 eggs each), but thats fine and are eating like fiends now.

It's ironic that it was my 53 inch female that had to be aspirated due to egg binding.

I normally wait a little longer but,this season I bred my '06 Abbott okie keeper,she layed 16 eggs with no problems and she's gaining her weight back nicely !! Jeff

That Okeetee is so hot you should need a permit!
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I decided my old sig was too big.

>>The below posts made me wonder, how many people actually breed their corns at 18 months - 2 years old?
>>I want honest answers. If you are ashamed to say that you do it, then maybe you shouldn't do it.
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>>****Misty****
>>
>>www.sneakyserpents.com
>>
>>"The more things change, the more they remain Insane"

Me personally...I've never bred one younger then 24 plus months
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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I breed them whenever they reach about three feet. There have been several cases of wild corns beng found that were about two feet long and gravid. Having said that, age has far less to do with a snake's maturity than size. There have been corn snakes that successfully reproduced at 9 months of age.

Although there's fear of egg binding or retention in small snakes, I've seen it happen far more often in larger snakes that were proven breeders but didn't have the muscle tone to expell eggs.

There's a heck of a lot of individual variability when it comes to corns and I've always felt that one aspect of being a breeder is to know your animals and understand that they won't always follow "cookbook" type guidelines. I've bred corns, kings and milks at 18 months will no harmful effects. I have a gravid Honduran that will turn 20 years old this Summer - I first bred her at 18 months.

I think most people feel better about waiting an extra year, and there's probably no harm in that.

Tim

>>I breed them whenever they reach about three feet. There have been several cases of wild corns beng found that were about two feet long and gravid. Having said that, age has far less to do with a snake's maturity than size. There have been corn snakes that successfully reproduced at 9 months of age.
>>
>>Although there's fear of egg binding or retention in small snakes, I've seen it happen far more often in larger snakes that were proven breeders but didn't have the muscle tone to expell eggs.
>>
>>There's a heck of a lot of individual variability when it comes to corns and I've always felt that one aspect of being a breeder is to know your animals and understand that they won't always follow "cookbook" type guidelines. I've bred corns, kings and milks at 18 months will no harmful effects. I have a gravid Honduran that will turn 20 years old this Summer - I first bred her at 18 months.
>>
>>I think most people feel better about waiting an extra year, and there's probably no harm in that.
>>
>>Tim

I like to go two years plus just to be on the safe side.
If I went by the three ft. guidline I'd have a couple that would never breed....lol
I have an '03 snow that is maybe 34 inches but she has bred for me three years running and even gave me a couple of good eggs in a second clutch last year
There's nothing in my collection that hasn't been done so I don't have to hurry...lol
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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>>I like to go two years plus just to be on the safe side.
>>If I went by the three ft. guidline I'd have a couple that would never breed....lol
>>I have an '03 snow that is maybe 34 inches but she has bred for me three years running and even gave me a couple of good eggs in a second clutch last year
>>There's nothing in my collection that hasn't been done so I don't have to hurry...lol
>>-----

just thought I would add a little.
The snake mentioned above is one of my snows. My female stripe cream is about the same size. She might be 36 inches but if she is, it is dead on and not a hair longer...lol
BUT, they are both full bodied for their length, without being over weight. I try to keep my snakes on prey size and a feeding schedule to keep them healthy but not over-fed.
As far as the snake's sexualy maturity is concerned age isn't neccessarily a factor, if size is reached, I just feel that if I give them over two years (actually averages around 30 months) it gives me a pretty good indication on what their size will probably be and whether or not they are just predisposed to be smaller corns, kind of like some Miamis's and Keys.
I just need the security in MY decision to breed. No rules, no guidelines just when I feel they are ready.
Then to me it becomes pretty obvious, if I put them with a male and they are willing to allow the hook up that tells me they are ready.
Like I said earlier, nothing I do is cutting edge so I have no need to hurry. It is more for my own peace of mind.

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

since this is my first year breeding--I am letting all the females over 250g have at it until they look satisfied.
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Mark

Your poll question implies that something is wrong with breeding sub two-year old corns. Viewers should be aware that age has very little to do with sexual maturity in snakes. Likewise, youth is no indication that there will be problems in corn snake breedings, but corns that are TOO SMALL to breed can be a big problem. Generally speaking, all nine-month old collies are the same size. Corn snakes (like most other serpent species) are not mature by age alone, and therefore can be between 14 and 48 inches by their second birthday. Granted some males over 30" long will not readily breed, indicating that both size AND age can play a role in sexual maturity, but conversely, I have seen four and five-year old female corns whose health was in potential danger if they were gravid.

I think it is wrong to equate maturity with age, unless you make a comment about the role SIZE plays in breeding criteria. EACH time you post about maturity, you should make some statement regarding size Vs age. Otherwise, you send an incorrect message to some of the less-seasoned corn keepers reading this forum. Since corns can safely reach a length of 36 " in ONE year, I think you would facilitate education about breeding corns better if you didn't solely cite age as a pre-requisite to maturity. Sorry to say that three different ways, but I want it to soak in.

It's fine to have an educated opinion about something this important, but I believe it's prudent to include information regarding opposing data. I do not judge you for saying it is your opinion that it's wrong to breed young corns, but I must point out to readers of this forum that age is not THE pre-requisite to safe corn snake breeding.

My general goal for breeding female corns is to do so when they are over 36" long (if heavy and healthy enough). This year, I have two female corns from 2007 that are gravid. Both are over 36" long and I have NO reservations about doing this. Some corns at 40" are not safe to breed. Approximately 60% of my females are ready to breed before their second birthdays. Virtually all of the other 40% are bred before their third b'days, BUT not all of them. Sometimes, four years of maturity is necessary. As it is with everything, no two corns are alike, so I caution everyone to consider size when determining the sexual "maturity", and NOT age.
South Mountain Reptiles

kudos to DON you said it best!!.....later...boadave

good points Don. And this is what I wanted, the people who have been breeding for a long time to get in with their opinions.

With what you said about a corn being 36" safe to breed depending on health, size. How many grams do you consider good size for a 36" corn snake that is 2 years or less, to breed?

I have always been told by different people about the 300grams, 3 years old and 3 feet rule. With all the differnt negative possibilities of breeding younger snakes, I think the cons outweigh the pros. Again, that is my opinion. It also has to do with the fact that I have learned from experience.

I am not trying to put my opinions on others. Like I mentioned in another post, this is one of those things where people are set in their way of thinking. I am not trying to tell people what they should do with their own corns. I have just learned that it is not healthy.

I read the other post about this topic and it made me think that what was being said is its ok to breed all corns at 18 months. I just felt that people should know about the possibilities of complications. Like you said, one subject should not be talked about without the other (size and age). I know it is hard to get someones intent and tone in a letter/post, and I may be mistaken on how the original post was intended. But, I totally agree with you that there are other issues besides age.
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****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"The more things change, the more they remain Insane"

good points Don. And this is what I wanted, the people who have been breeding for a long time to get in with their opinions.

With what you said about a corn being 36" safe to breed depending on health, size. How many grams do you consider good size for a 36" corn snake that is 2 years or less, to breed?

225 TO 250 GRAMS.

I have always been told by different PEOPLE about the 300grams, 3 years old and 3 feet rule.

WHO WERE THOSE "PEOPLE"? "PEOPLE" THAT READ IT ON THE FORUMS or PEOPLE THAT HAVE THE RESUME OF EXPERIENCE TO PERSONALLY TESTIFY TO THE LEGITIMACY OF THAT "rule"? FOR ABOUT A YEAR, I'VE BEEN GETTING LOTS OF EMAILS AND READING LOTS OF FORUMS ABOUT THE 3-3-3 "rule". UNTIL A YEAR AGO, I'D NEVER HEARD OF IT. I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE IS THAT SOMEBODY WITH GOOD INTENTIONS PUBLISHED THAT, AND SINCE IT tends TO WORK, PEOPLE RUN WITH IT. JUST BECAUSE "PEOPLE" POST AND SAY IT ALOT, DOES NOT MAKE IT A "rule". SINCE I HAVE OVER 30 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE THAT HAS NOT SATISFIED THAT "rule", I PERSONALLY DON'T THINK IT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED "OFFICIAL GUIDELINES". BTW, I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW MANY TIMES I RUN ACROSS FORUMS WHOSE MAIN PARTICIPANTS ARE CONSIDERED "EXPERTS". THEY HAVE POSTED HUNDREDS OF TIMES, BUT MOST OF WHAT THEY KNOW IS FROM WHAT THEY HAVE READ. YES, THEY HAVE EXPERIENCE, BUT MOST OF WHAT THEY POST IS WHAT THEY HAVE HEARD OR READ, AND SOME HAVE ACTUALLY ONLY BEEN BREEDING SNAKES FOR ONE OR A FEW YEARS. I'M NOT PUTTING DOWN THESE PEOPLE, BUT POINTING OUT THAT WE SHOULDN'T TAKE ALL WE READ WITH BLIND FAITH. ON SOME FORUMS, REPUTATION POINTS ARE AWARDED TO FREQUENT POSTERS; PRESUMABLY TO LET YOU KNOW IF YOU CAN TRUST WHAT THEY SAY. WHILE THAT MAY HELP, THEIR REP POINTS DON'T NECESSARILY INDICATE THAT EVERYTHING THEY POST IS GOSPEL.

IT'S A SUPER SAFE SET OF NUMBERS (REGARDING SIZE), BUT AGE SHOULD NOT BE THERE. THE PERSON THAT MADE THAT UP MUST HAVE WANTED TO HAVE A CATCHY PHRASE THAT PEOPLE WOULD REMEMBER. SORTA LIKE CALLING A PLUMBER BY DIALING 1-800-FIXALEAK. IT'S MORE NUMBERS THAN YOU NEED, BUT PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER IT FROM THE EXTENSION NAME. PROBLEM HERE IS THAT IF PEOPLE WAIT UNTIL A 36" SNAKE IS 300 GRAMS, THEY MAY WAIT A VERY LONG TIME AND/OR IT COULD BE BORDERLINE OBESE. IF YOU THINK YOUTH CAN NEGATIVELY IMPACT A FEMALE CORN, WAIT TILL YOU OVERFEED A SNAKE, JUST TO GET IT UP TO 300 GRAMS. YOU COULD OVERSHOOT YOUR MARK AND LOSE THE SNAKE TO OBESITY LINKED COMPLICATIONS. ALSO, DO YOU WEIGH IT WITH EGGS OR RIGHT OUT OF BRUMATION? THOSE EGGS DEVELOP FAIRLY QUICKLY. CORN SNAKE EGGS CAN BE ALMOST FULL-SIZE WITHOUT HAVING BEEN FERTILIZED YET. EVEN HALF-DEVELOPED EGGS CAN CONSTITUTE A SIGNIFICANT PERCENTAGE OF A SNAKE'S WEIGHT. IF IT'S 280 GRAMS AND YOU'RE WATCHING THE SCALES TO PUT THE MALE IN FOR THAT SEASON, YOU COULD INTRODUCE THE MALE A WEEK TOO LATE AND GET ALL SLUGS, IF SHE HIT 300, BUT WAS NOT RECEPTIVE TO SPERM.

HENCE, THE 3 FT PART OF THAT SOUNDS GOOD. THREE YEARS IS PLAYING IT SAFE, BUT 300 GRAMS CAN BE AMBIGUOUS. IF PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR A CATCHY SERIES OF sameNUMBERS (3-3-3), IT COULD WORK, BUT I'D BE NERVOUS ABOUT THE 300 GRAM WEIGHT PART OF THE SERIES. JUST LIKE PEOPLE, SOME CORNS METABOLIZE ODDLY AND COULD BE 3.5-4.0 FEET LONG, BUT UNDER 300 GRAMS.

With all the differnt negative possibilities of breeding younger snakes, I think the cons outweigh the pros. Again, that is my opinion. It also has to do with the fact that I have learned from experience.

THERE YOU GO AGAIN. YOU SAID young AND YOU SAID "I have learned", AS IF IT ALWAYS HAPPENS. "young" S NOT BE AN ELEMENT OF THE EQUATION. BELIEVE ME, WILD CORNS DO NOT READ FORUM THREADS. WHEN A YOUNG FEMALE HAS A GREAT FEEDING SPRING, SHE DEVELOPS EGGS. WHEN SHE DOES THAT, SHE'S DEFINITELY GOING TO BE FERTILIZED. GRANTED, WILD SNAKES GET MORE EXERCISE, BUT WILD CORNS BREED WAY BEFORE THEY'RE 300 GRAMS.

I'M NOT DEBATING SOMEONE "PLAYING IT SAFE", BUT I DON'T WANT PEOPLE THINKING AGE IS A CRITERION FOR ACHIEVING SAFE EGG DEPOSITION, AND THE HEALTH OF THE MOTHER. AGAIN, IT'S ABOUT QUALIFICATION. YOUR POST GAVE A PRECONCEPTION THAT IT WAS WRONG TO BREED TWO-YEAR OLD SNAKES. I THINK IT'S SMARTER TO GIVE SNAKE KEEPERS THE FACTS AND LET THEM MAKE UP THEIR OWN MINDS, vs GIVING THEM THE IMPRESSION THAT THERE IS A FIRM STANDARD TO WHICH THEY MUST COMPLY TO SUCCESSFULLY BREED CORNS. IF I WERE A NEWBY READING YOUR THREAD, I'D AUTOMATICALLY READ INTO YOUR ORIGINAL POST, THAT IT WAS A BAD THING TO BREED TWO-YEAR OLDS.

I am not trying to put my opinions on others. Like I mentioned in another post, this is one of those things where people are set in their way of thinking. I am not trying to tell people what they should do with their own corns. I have just learned that it is not healthy.

SO IN THE LAST STATEMENT OF THAT PARAGRAPH, YOU ARE AGAIN DECLARING THAT IT'S "not healthy" TO DO THAT? I'M LIVING AND PROFESSIONAL PROOF THAT YOU ARE NOT CORRECT.

I read the other post about this topic and it made me think that what was being said is its ok to breed all corns at 18 months. I just felt that people should know about the possibilities of complications. Like you said, one subject should not be talked about without the other (size and age). I know it is hard to get someones intent and tone in a letter/post, and I may be mistaken on how the original post was intended. But, I totally agree with you that there are other issues besides age.

THERE YA GO GIVE ALL THE DETAILS AND YOUR OPINIONS. EVEN SHARE YOUR EXPERIENCES, BUT LET THEM MAKE UP THEIR OWN MINDS, BASED ON HEARING all THE FACTS, VS WHAT HAPPENED TO ONLY YOU. IF YOU PERSONALLY BRED 100 YOUNG FEMALE CORNS AND 20 OF THEM HAD SEVERE COMPLICATIONS, JUST CITE YOUR EFFICACY. DATA LIKE THAT WOULD BE DIFFICUL TO IGNORE. I CAN TELL YOU THAT I HAVE DYSTOCIA RELATED PROBLEMS WITH ABOUT 3% OF THE "young" FEMALE CORNS I BREED. ONCE AGAIN, IT'S BECAUSE I QUALIFY MY BREEDERS BY SIZE RATHER THAN AGE.

WHAT YOU SAY HAS MERIT. I JUST WANT THE FACTS TO BE OUT THERE, SO PEOPLE CAN DRAW THEIR OWN CONCLUSIONS. MANY READERS ON THIS FORUM TEND TO BELIEVE MOST (IF NOT ALL) OF WHAT THEY READ HERE. THEY SHOULD HERE BOTH SIDES OF IMPORTANT ISSUES.
South Mountain Reptiles

Well put!!! Jeff

i agree with don, very well said.
greg

Wow Don,

You just covered a wide range of topics.
And you covered them very well.
I couldn't have said it better myself!

Tim

"you use your tongue prettier than a $20 dollar ..."

name that movie quote someone.
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South Texas Herps

What will $20 getcha these days ? ? ?
South Mountain Reptiles

It's what it might be "het" for that would scare me to death!..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

n/p
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"The band is just fantastic, that is really what I think. Oh by the way, which ones pink?"

Very well said!! Jeff

i say breed them when there ready!! i know big name breeders that breed as soon as they get big enuff to breed and tell you , you should wait till there 2-3 years old, why can they do it, with boas , burms , retics and such but tell you, you should wait???....just my opinion....boadave

All factors have to be weighed. It is also dangerous-maybe even more so-to wait too long to breed a female. The potential complications involved in an infertile clutch are well documented. Believe me, I've learned this from sad experience.

I do it sometimes, when the size of the young female warrants. Out of a dozen or so '06 holdbacks, I have clutches incubating from three this Spring....
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I've always been under the impression that as long as they're over 300 grams AND 36 inches, that it's okay to breed them before they're 3 yrs.
I have plans of breeding a couple of my '07s next year if they reach appropriate sizing. One's over 150grams now and probably over 2.5 ft. I have no doubt she'll be to size in 10 months!
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-Jaime Palma
Mad-City Constrictors

The 3-3-3 rule I believe was in one of Kathys books.. I think the whole intention is for the novice breeders to get a feel for what is going on instead of being retards breeding animals that might not fall under decent criteria that more expierianced breeders can tell the difference.. A lot of Canadian breeders have said in their forums they don;t breed until their females reach about 500g's, because they feel anything under that just puts the animals in harms way.. Shrugs...

Everyone has their comfort level, so essentially these can be viewed as loaded questions at times.. However the more time that goes by and more expieriance I can, I am getting a lot more comfortable with the females I choose to bred..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

I don't see it in the Comprehensive Owner's Guide. In fact - flipping through the breeding section, she seems to not give any rules.

The rule of thumb I heard was 250g and not obese.

Of course - since a corn can sometimes consume a third of its weight (or more ??) in a feeding - I assumed that 250g is post shed pre feed.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Look in the old book...

YOU SAID ".. A lot of Canadian breeders have said in their forums they don;t breed until their females reach about 500g's, because they feel anything under that just puts the animals in harms way.. Shrugs... "

i have a 15 yr old corn who isnt even that big!!!! Shes never been that big, and will NEVER get that big.... Thats just plain stupid if you ask me!!! only 1 of my corns is about 500 grams!!! and its a male!!! So i say that rule is bologna!!!!
~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn(Just A Pet), A Ball Python, A Bearded dragon, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping turtle, and a white cheeked mud turtle

Maybe it's 500 in CANADIAN grams.

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Mark

HAHAHHAHAHA THANKS NEEDED A LAUGH!!!
~KIN
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn(Just A Pet), A Ball Python, A Bearded dragon, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping turtle, and a white cheeked mud turtle

500g must be a typo.
Unless they are talking about ball pythons - where I believe 500 or 600 is what a lot of them go by.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

er, no, 1500 is what they go by.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

It actually was not a typo, it was mentioned quite a few times in another forum.. No Funky Res, its not any of the forums we both visit..

I have a few corns that are over 500g's, one that is well over 700g's..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

those corns MUST be fat!!!!!! my largest is about 5 feet and he's chunky and about 500 grams... Now i have a black rat snake who is 6 feet and is healthy and large... but i have NEVER seen a healthy corn that is 500-700 grams!!!! Only really really fat corns who can barely move.....

~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Corns, Creamsicles, A Black Rat, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn(Just A Pet), A Ball Python, A Bearded dragon, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, a Snapping turtle, and a white cheeked mud turtle

Over weight? Maybe.. Just a big corn..

I didnt power feed my 06 female if thats what you're wondering. She's actually a pretty good size too for not power feeding her. I know how big snake eggs are and she seemed to be a good comfortable size for breeding. I'm not one of those guys who has $$$$$ in mind and wants to push my animals to breed as early as possible so I can roll in the dough ASAP.
She was a good size, had great weight on her, and she was sexually mature obviously.
I know some people may disagree with what I've done. It doesnt bother me. There are plenty of people out there with bad information about the do's and dont's.
Don pretty much said the rest. Thanks Don.
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Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"