Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey!
I just reread the panel discussion with Erin Williams as the guest that took place here in the KS chatroom the end of February. There were some good ideas mentioned in it and I know some people met in Chicago a few weeks or so ago to discuss things further. Can anyone give us an idea of where we are and where we’re headed?

I say “we” because this is my fight, too, and I want to do whatever I can to help. I realize that there are a lot of big time breeders/dealers with a lot more at stake than just a hobby or passion but please don’t think that you’re all alone. I’m sure there are many others like me willing to do more than our share

I don’t have much money to contribute, I’m a poor boy, but I will find a way to chip in what I can. While I would love to be a member of PIJAC’s NRIP (National Reptile Improvement Plan) the fees are a bit steep for the common man, average reptile enthusiast. I don’t know enough about PIJAC, itself, to come to any conclusion as to whether or not they’d be a viable voice or ally. No offense intended but I think they’re too big, broad, to meet our needs at the moment. I’m just saying that it doesn’t appear that they’re reptile-specific enough for what we need now.

Has there been any talk about forming a National reptile organization, club, or whatever you want to call it? I would imagine that many enthusiasts would gladly pay something like $35 per year for such a membership in a prestigious National organization, especially knowing that part of our money is going toward future fights, of which I’m sure there will be plenty more to come.

We can’t afford to sit back and just hope & pray that someone is working on getting something going. We can’t afford to keep playing defense, only. We have to get some offensive points on the board, and soon.

Just the other day another rocket scientist – turned snake expert, claimed that a Burmese Python in the Everglades “…swam 37 miles in a few hours.” http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/05/16/giant-python-florida.html Someone posted the story link here in the Burmese Python forum: http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1526315,1526315

I find it quite disturbing that Federal Government agencies have laid out such a vicious, methodical attack.

So, where are we and where are we headed?

Michael Sanders
(HH)
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

HH,

I have been trying to start an org. that supports the rights of ALL herpers but I have had little to no help. I was hoping PIJAC would step up with a sub-org. that works on state and local herp issues as well as the national ones but I don't think it is going to happen. Andrew Wyatt of NCARK is about to launch USARK. Which is a group concerned with safety and possession issues mainly. They are not going to address, so I have been told, the commercialization of wild caught, collecting and other important issues. Other recently formed groups are firmly in line with the banning agenda of many academics, agency biologists and AR groups. As my friend John pointed out recently at least one group appears to be a glorified snake hunting club disguised as a herp group.

We need to form a national org. that protects the rights (or priviledges) of all herpers - both commercial and recreational. This group should be made up of importers, supply companies, collectors, breeders, stores and the single pet owner and its focus should be strictly on protecting the right (or priviledge) of individuals (qualified in some cases) to collect, keep, buy, sell and transport both venomous and non-venomous herps. We can do this and still conserve herps. We do need a positive counter offensive as well as a well funded defense. We are about 30 plus years behind at the moment. The attacks against us have been relentless and it is only going to get worse.

If we can get a website going with an agenda we can start to build a membership base to fund the fight. We can't do anything w/o funds and people willing to put in the time.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Mike,

This quote from you isn't a back-handed swipe at HCU is it?

"As my friend John pointed out recently at least one group appears to be a glorified snake hunting club disguised as a herp group."

Uh...thought so.

Randal Berry

>>HH,
>>
>> As my friend John pointed out recently at least one group appears to be a glorified snake hunting club disguised as a herp group.
>>

Mike I try my best to remain civil with you but MAN you make it difficult. What exactly have you done besides come up with suggestions for OTHER people to do? You bark allot but theres not much bite. Lets see a short and simple run down on what this "snake hunting club" has done.
* Have made donations and had talks with several state senators
* Count one state senator as a MEMBER
* Have members from City, county, state and federal law enforcement
* Members from academia
* members from US Fish and Wildlife
* Built a website
* About to have our first annual meeting / field trip on a private ranch
* Added several private ranches to our lists for membership to LEGALLY herp until the law is changed
* Have several corprate sponsors that have donated

There's lots more, should I go on? I really don't think there's a need. I think you get the point. If you put the amount of energy into "your cause" that you put into bashing people that won't do the work for you, you might come up with something.
WE are making progress. WHY? because we walk the walk and don't talk the talk. Start walking the walk, we won't fight against you, promise. We have more important things to do. I'm telling you all this as a suggestion, NOT to bash you. Take some steps, build a website, recruit memebers to your cause, solicit donations, etc. What pleasure does it give you to talk smack? I really don't understand your drive to act like this. You border on delusional here. Have you ever went back and read your posts?

Lastly,
This "Glorified Snake Hunting Club" is about to get the law changed...watch and see.
-----
HCU
Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

we are going to live and die in the legislators and the courts.

LOBBY yourselves and hire lobbyists.

Make friends with legislators and senators. This is where we are getting hammered. Educate them and convince them to vote yes or no according to what we want them to vote. Let them know you want them present when the vote takes place

Lobby some more

Challenge unjust laws in the courts to establish a precedent.

Every single one of us should be on first name basis with our senators and representatives. Same goes for your city councilmen and women. All levels from city, state and national.

That what everyone needs to do, and if only a few of us are doing it we won't prevail.

BTW you don't need any affiliation to do it. If you are part of a group fine, if not the plan is the same. Just do it.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I agree. A "National Organization" might help, but I don't think it's the panacea some make it out to be. Individuals need to contact their representatives for sure. But I also think individuals need to make an effort to educate the public. Presentations at local schools are a great way to do this. Even just talking to neighbors and/or showing them the realities of snake/reptile ownership helps. I've done both, and I've been pleasantly surprised by the overall positive response I've gotten. I know many people just don't like reptiles, especially large snakes, but I firmly believe many are just ignorant.

One other way to defend against these AR extremists is to hit back hard using the media, but from my limited perspective, I don't see that happening. Every time a stupid "Pythons will overrun the country" article is published and not rebutted, it's another nail in the coffin for us. Sitting down and privately negotiating in good faith with those who we know want to ban all reptile ownership is silly. It's like negotiating with terrorists.

Anyway, just my two cents...

Thanks,
Ed

>>we are going to live and die in the legislators and the courts.
>>
>>LOBBY yourselves and hire lobbyists.
>>
>>Make friends with legislators and senators. This is where we are getting hammered. Educate them and convince them to vote yes or no according to what we want them to vote. Let them know you want them present when the vote takes place
>>
>>Lobby some more
>>
>>Challenge unjust laws in the courts to establish a precedent.
>>
>>Every single one of us should be on first name basis with our senators and representatives. Same goes for your city councilmen and women. All levels from city, state and national.
>>
>>That what everyone needs to do, and if only a few of us are doing it we won't prevail.
>>
>>BTW you don't need any affiliation to do it. If you are part of a group fine, if not the plan is the same. Just do it.
>>-----
>>Herp Conservation Unlimited
>>Mexicana Group Directory
>>Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Ed,
Yes the AR groups are much more active politically and in spreading propaganda. We can not expect to gain ground unless we are MORE active than the AR groups.

Also I would like to mention that anyone that joins any group, that does not absolve them of personal responsibility of being politically active. If someone joins a group and thinks that they have done their part, well they have not.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

"Also I would like to mention that anyone that joins any group, that does not absolve them of personal responsibility of being politically active. If someone joins a group and thinks that they have done their part, well they have not."

That would make a good signature. It cannot be stressed enough. So many people want to just throw money at problems and not help with the footwork.

Heed your ques as well as pay your dues.

Later!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

I agree that there are things we, as individuals, can & should be doing. Each one of us has to do our part. However, we can't deny the power that a well organized & prestigious national organization could have. Odds are we would all be protecting ourselves & hunting with slingshots if it weren't for the NRA.

We aren't battling "Joe Blow" of HSUS, or "Jane Doe" of API, we're battling several thousand members with collective resources. Remember, "there's strength in numbers."

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not arguing with you or anyone else, or being hasty in any way. I'm just trying to get people to see the point I'm trying to make, the purpose for this thread.

For instance: A statement in someone's reply suggested "Challenge unjust laws in the courts to establish a precedent."

How many individual reptile keepers can afford to do that? But if everyone pitches in what they can, financially as well as individual non-monetary efforts, we'll have enough collective resources to do so. And more.

"Every time a stupid "Pythons will overrun the country" article is published and not rebutted, it's another nail in the coffin for us."

Exactly! However, I don't have the finances to pay for 30-second infomercials. I don't have the needed "star" power to be taken seriously enough by the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, USA Today, NY Times, etc, to get them to publish a rebuttal from me. If there were collective resources we could afford to hire someone that already has a bit of star power or formal training.

Ed, you mentioned individuals needing to educate the public - I agree. This can be very effective at the local level. It gives the public firsthand experience, which is much needed. However, I've already seen & heard of a few bad situations stemming from this right here in my very small community. Let's face it, we don't want/need just anyone/everyone doing these kind of displays.

In order to be effective in the court of public opinion s person must be respectable, in character, as well as appearance, and knowledgeable. We've all read articles or seen videos from enthusiasts that left us shakin' our heads, saying, "That doesn't do us any good!"

At the time of this posting a branch of OUR Federal govmt is heavily engaged in fear mongering with their relentless media blitz of "invasive, dangerous, large constrictors". How many of us have written to and/or called these branches of govmt, Congress, and even the President of the United States of America, about the abuse of authority and taxpayer funds? And I thought the funding of a study measuring polar bear penises was a hideous abuse.

Like I said earlier, I don't have much money, but I'll take care of domain name registration, website hosting, webmaster, errand runner, signature collecion, water boy, or whatever else I can do to help organize & maintain a national organization. I even look half-way presentable if I put my teeth in & take a shower.

One thing's for sure, folks - we don't need to let this cause strife amongst us. We're all in this together and we need each other.

Ya'll have a great day!
Mike
(HH)
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Hey Mike,

Oh, we're on the same page, I think this is a great discussion.

I agree there are strength in numbers, but I don't think that automatically translates to a national organization. Don't get me wrong, a national organization would not hurt, but if 50,00 or 100,000 individual herp owners rebutted every stupid article or requested a TV show to cover this issue, progress might start before we wait around for the mythical organization or celebrity representative. In a way, a "grass roots" effort is more effective than a large organization. Maybe this is an unrealistic expectation, I don't know. Regarding star power, again, that would certainly help, but "grass roots" effort could attract that if there is no immediate star power.

I think a website would be great - maybe have a list of the news organizations that publish the stupidity, as well as a list of other media outlets we can pursue. (TV shows, other websites, newspapers, etc.) I've been e-mailing a popular TV show for a while now, trying to get this covered. But one, two or 5 people emailing a show will do nothing. A website could give people some concrete information and instructions on how to help.
IMO, this is even bigger than reptiles, it's about civil servants pushing an agenda using junk science and scare tactics. It's time to fight back, not "sit and wait" or write polite letters to the USGS pointing out their research flaws.

Anyway, I appreciate your posts. I say let's create a website, something that is free and accessible to everyone, not just members of any particular group. What do you think?

Thanks again,
Ed

>>I agree that there are things we, as individuals, can & should be doing. Each one of us has to do our part. However, we can't deny the power that a well organized & prestigious national organization could have. Odds are we would all be protecting ourselves & hunting with slingshots if it weren't for the NRA.
>>
>>We aren't battling "Joe Blow" of HSUS, or "Jane Doe" of API, we're battling several thousand members with collective resources. Remember, "there's strength in numbers."
>>
>>Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not arguing with you or anyone else, or being hasty in any way. I'm just trying to get people to see the point I'm trying to make, the purpose for this thread.
>>
>>For instance: A statement in someone's reply suggested "Challenge unjust laws in the courts to establish a precedent."
>>
>>How many individual reptile keepers can afford to do that? But if everyone pitches in what they can, financially as well as individual non-monetary efforts, we'll have enough collective resources to do so. And more.
>>
>>
>>"Every time a stupid "Pythons will overrun the country" article is published and not rebutted, it's another nail in the coffin for us."
>>
>>Exactly! However, I don't have the finances to pay for 30-second infomercials. I don't have the needed "star" power to be taken seriously enough by the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, USA Today, NY Times, etc, to get them to publish a rebuttal from me. If there were collective resources we could afford to hire someone that already has a bit of star power or formal training.
>>
>>Ed, you mentioned individuals needing to educate the public - I agree. This can be very effective at the local level. It gives the public firsthand experience, which is much needed. However, I've already seen & heard of a few bad situations stemming from this right here in my very small community. Let's face it, we don't want/need just anyone/everyone doing these kind of displays.
>>
>>In order to be effective in the court of public opinion s person must be respectable, in character, as well as appearance, and knowledgeable. We've all read articles or seen videos from enthusiasts that left us shakin' our heads, saying, "That doesn't do us any good!"
>>
>>At the time of this posting a branch of OUR Federal govmt is heavily engaged in fear mongering with their relentless media blitz of "invasive, dangerous, large constrictors". How many of us have written to and/or called these branches of govmt, Congress, and even the President of the United States of America, about the abuse of authority and taxpayer funds? And I thought the funding of a study measuring polar bear penises was a hideous abuse.
>>
>>Like I said earlier, I don't have much money, but I'll take care of domain name registration, website hosting, webmaster, errand runner, signature collecion, water boy, or whatever else I can do to help organize & maintain a national organization. I even look half-way presentable if I put my teeth in & take a shower.
>>
>>One thing's for sure, folks - we don't need to let this cause strife amongst us. We're all in this together and we need each other.
>>
>>Ya'll have a great day!
>>Mike
>>(HH)
>>-----
>>Due to political correctness run amuck,
>>this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
>>Appalachian American
>>
>>
>>www.natures-signature.com

Ed and All,

I think the discussion so far has been positive but there are some considerations that must be sorted through.

A "grassroots" effort without guidance I don't think will happen. A few of us do participate in a self guided "grassroots" effort but our message is not consistent, focused and coordinated. In general, people need direction, guidance and focus. So I think a "grassroots" organization solves this problem. But if an organization is formed it needs to have an agenda. And to unify all the herp folks this agenda will have to include positions on each of the issues. The current organizations out there do not do this so a new, all inclusive organization needs to be formed.

A website that is free to all sounds like a good idea but it would really not be free. Creating content and running the site would take some funding. We also need funds for a whole host of things. If we gave it away free we couldn't generate the capital needed to fund our fight.

We need two things: willing people and money. I have heard that most herp societies and groups are run by a small handful of dedicated people who do most of the work. If we could find the people willing to do this consistently that would be great but that is a very difficult thing to do. I have been trying to start an all inclusive organization for over a year with little to no help. I have people who want to be members but they don't want to do any of the work. I have asked for help but people are to busy. The problem is that many folks need to spend their time working to earn a living. Starting and running a group does not pay well as a matter of fact it costs in time and money.

I would be willing to donate my time towards a national organization as long as I agree with the agenda. I do not have much in the way of funds to contribute. Comments?

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Hi Mike,

Just to clarify, my vision of the website is very specific, and it's purpose is *not* to be a national organization with a myriad of issues and agendas. What I'm thinking of is just creating a very simple website that the average Joe snake owner can go to get information to act himself. This information could include:

- links to hysterical articles and email addresses for rebuttal

- contacts for potential TV programs

- links to relevant websites exposing these animal right groups

- solicit other ideas for using the media to fight back.

Stuff like this. We need to make it easier for people to act, since I think a lot of them are either uninclined to pay dues, and/or they simply don't know what to do.

Maybe I'm being naive, but at the same time, it's not uncommon for websites to become incredibly popular within days, just by word of mouth. Even if only several hundred people act, it cold make a difference if we are persistent.

It wouldn't really be that much work for such a website. The domain could be bought for under $15, and a simple website is easy to construct.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Ed and All,
>>
>>I think the discussion so far has been positive but there are some considerations that must be sorted through.
>>
>>A "grassroots" effort without guidance I don't think will happen. A few of us do participate in a self guided "grassroots" effort but our message is not consistent, focused and coordinated. In general, people need direction, guidance and focus. So I think a "grassroots" organization solves this problem. But if an organization is formed it needs to have an agenda. And to unify all the herp folks this agenda will have to include positions on each of the issues. The current organizations out there do not do this so a new, all inclusive organization needs to be formed.
>>
>>A website that is free to all sounds like a good idea but it would really not be free. Creating content and running the site would take some funding. We also need funds for a whole host of things. If we gave it away free we couldn't generate the capital needed to fund our fight.
>>
>>We need two things: willing people and money. I have heard that most herp societies and groups are run by a small handful of dedicated people who do most of the work. If we could find the people willing to do this consistently that would be great but that is a very difficult thing to do. I have been trying to start an all inclusive organization for over a year with little to no help. I have people who want to be members but they don't want to do any of the work. I have asked for help but people are to busy. The problem is that many folks need to spend their time working to earn a living. Starting and running a group does not pay well as a matter of fact it costs in time and money.
>>
>>I would be willing to donate my time towards a national organization as long as I agree with the agenda. I do not have much in the way of funds to contribute. Comments?
>>
>>Mike Welker
>>El Paso, TX

Some sort of "action center" is worth considering. It wouldn't be the same as PetHobbyist's Herp Law Alert so there shouldn't be any conflict of interest there.

I don't know, though,... the more I think about it the more I feel like it'll be a big waste of time. The first people to complain that their rights or privileges have been taken away are usually the very ones that didn't lift a finger in the battle. Judging from this thread the concerned are few & far between. Maybe it's just me. Maybe when I turn 14 people will take what I say more seriously. If only I could turn back time 33yrs. Ha! Oh well.

I've got a clutch of Burmese Python eggs due to hatch in about 3 weeks. I've got a good mind to inform those on my waiting list, and any other potential buyers, that if they didn't respond to the USFWS NOI they can forget about getting one of my burms. Tempting, oh, so tempting. At least some proof of some sort of action.

It's been a long, hard day and I'm dog-tired, and it's starting to show in my post. I'll say, "Good night!" (actually - good morning since it's 2am) and see what transpires over the next few days and take it from there.

Good night!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com