Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Yesterday - my female lavender Cal King that was suffering from egg binding died. She died sometime in the afternoon. I checked on her around 1PM and she was lethargic but alive. At 8PM - she was dead but rigomortis had not yet set in.

I suspect that calcium deficiency contributed to her egg binding.
The seven good eggs she laid do not have stellar looking shells. The shells from her clutch last year were picture perfect, and the shells from my banded amel this year are also much better looking.

The eggs seem to be doing OK so far, hopefully they don't end up with kinked little ones.

What to do in the future?

I have to wonder if the jump in rodent food prices has resulted in lower quality feed being used. I may calcium supplement the mice for the females in the future. I have to look at that carefully, I've heard that Calcium w/ D3 (what I use for lizards) can actually be bad for snakes, something about the D3 building up in fat cells or something. I'll have to do some research.

Also - in the future, I'm not going to wait so long to go to the vet. Any eggs that aren't passed after 48 hours of main clutch will constitute a vet visit for aspirating them.

Various pictures of her are in my blog at my (bleep) profile.
She was my favorite Cal King. I miss her already.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Edited on May 20, 2008 at 11:20:30 by PHGinger.

Honestly I don't think there is much you can do...it's just part of being a snake farmer. Some years you'll have problems like this and other years no problems. Typically when I have experienced egg binding it was generally a result of a female that was obese (my fault for feeding her too much).

Now when I did have egg bound females I let nature take its course and usally ended up with good results. The female when left alone retained a few eggs but ultimately passed them as hard stones a couple of months down the road. I think to often we rush in thinking we can fix it with meds or needles and we end up doing more harm than good.

Sorry for your loss.

Russ Bates

I don't think she was obese - this is the most recent pic I have of her, copulating this year:

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I decided my old sig was too big.

Funky I'm real sorry that happened. That truely sucks.
Russ I have to say that I could not agree more with the second half of your post. It's been my experience that if given a good secure, moist laying box and just left alone until they pass the last egg they will almost always take care of passing good and bad eggs by them self, weather it takes 1 hour or 2 months. I think the part of having a good moist and secure laying box with proper temps as FR stated below makes all the difference. I personally think it's important that they have access to water at all times if they want it too. Randy W.

Funky- Sorry to hear about your loss. It sucks when you raise a hatchling to an adult and lose it.
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"The band is just fantastic, that is really what I think. Oh by the way, which ones pink?"

Sorry for your loss. And I do mean that, but blaming a third party is silly and non productive.

First, as a rodent breeder, we use the same food we have for years, the cheapest. My rodent breeding friends, do the same, even those that use higher cost food. The only difference is, we pay more.

Next, egg binding has two REALLY COMMON CAUSES, and its not calicum def. And both lay directly on your shoulders. The very most common is, dehydration. Of course there are lots of causes for this, but the most common is, poor nesting choices. Which is very common on this board.

The second most common is immune system failure, or more accurately, oviduct infections. of course, this also occurs with prolonged dehydration. This is caused normally by poor temp choices(most common).

I have read your posts for the last few years and it seems your a very well meaning keeper. I seem to remember you going out and catching a few kings too. So I am going to ask you this, did you ever see eggs under those boards or better yet, out in the open? My bet is, nope, you have not. So I ask, why do you folks insist on forcing snakes to lay their eggs where they can see lite. Its their inherent behavior to nest in the DARK, not only humid, but dark and secure. As I say on the monitor forum, they want to lay their eggs so a onelegged woodpecker cannot dig them up. You see, the snakes actually value their reproductive effort, So they do not want to lay them in open shallow well lit areas. Its a very deep seeded behavior.

I have said this many times, but we commonly see kings nest one day after shedding. Up to five days normally. While that may not mean all that much to you, it sure does to them. Ask your wife(any lady that has given birth) how she would like to hold on to those kids for a few extra weeks or a couple of months? make sure you duck or wear some protection, as shes liable to take a swing at you.

You see, whether she knows it or not, its those extra days where problems occur. You all think, females(kings) are suppose to become dehydrated after laying, and surely thats normal, but its only normal if they are forced to hold the eggs far too long. Each and everyday they hold the eggs, the greater the chance of problems. This is true in nature as well as in captivity. To understand this, all you have to do is look at a female king that laid one day after shedding and a female king that laid 14 days after shedding, there is a huge difference in water loss.

As a central cal man said, are you feeling lucky mister, well your(her) luck just ran out.

Again, I am sorry for your loss, but you do have control over losses like this and you can do something about it, but blaming a blameless third party is not going to help.

FR,
I agree with what you day but it leaves me to wonder. where is the water going? what does a gravid female do with water to become dehydrated that a non gravid female does not? is it behavioral ( stops drinking) or physiological?

daveb
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vote in '08
chris cornell for van halen lead singer...

Heres a few thoughts,

Gravid females in the late stages usually are not feeding. Feeding is where most snakes gain their water needs. That combined with not being able to control water loss. In nature a snakes first order of business is to control water loss.

Lastly, an infertile egg is normally 1/3 smaller then fertile eggs. With that in mind, at the time of fertilization and shelling, the female uses her water to fill the eggs. The eggs of kingsnakes are normally fertilized around the pre-egglaying shed.

Then lastly and worsely, hahahahahaha i know, thats not a word is it? many keepers take the water bowl out when their females are near laying, so that they will not lay in the water bowl. Cheers

Several web searches and my vet cite calcium deficiency as a common cause of egg binding, and her eggs are not well calcified.

She also laid less than week from her prelay shed - so it wasn't lack of finding suitable place to lay, it was two eggs that didn't come out when did lay.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

You can supplement rodents with the finely-powdered calcium used for leopard geckos and such. Just dip the rear end of the thawed rodent into the powder.

Calcium aside, FR is right on with his assessment. See what happens when you give a gravid female king snake a deep nest box. Periodic soaking of the female in very shallow water for just a few minutes helps keep her well hydrated. Hydration is crucial.
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Mark

If you have a calicum deficent adult female, you have serious problems. And it would not occur from feeding adult mice. If the mice have bones and are not mush, there is more then enough calicum available. If your feeding adult mice and your snake is having problems, then I would look into your husbandry.

If the calicum is not being placed, then thats another problem altogether.

I will ask a few questions, how would calicum deficiency hinder egg deposition. In otherwords, why would it cause eggbinding? Females lay infertiles all the time and they have NO calicum layer????????????

Heck, I use to have females that laid half calicified eggs and I could watch the embryos grow and HATCH, without problem.

So forgive me if I have not experienced calicum deficent snakes and have no expericence in that area(thank god)

Over the last forty five or so years, I have found that diet is the LEAST item responsible for common reptile problems. Unless you consider lack of food a diet problem.

I have tested all manner of poor diets and as long as temp choices and humidity choices were available, there were no problems.

Without question, one of the weakest eliments in reptile husbandry is nesting. Thats funny to me, as nesting is key to reptile behavior. Nesting is key to bird behavior as well, you should ask bird keepers how important it is to nest birds properly.

I have found nesting to be KEY with turtles, torts, snakes and very very very important to varanids. But is totally ignored in the colubrid world. Truth is, colubrids are very tolerant(as in easy) But that does not mean its not important. Folks take it for granted, until they have problems, then they are lost.

Folks make all manner of analogies with nature, when trying to convince themselves of some point or another. But when I ask why we do not see snake eggs all over nature, I get nothing. Where are the snake eggs in nature and WHY?

As we type, there are millions upon millions of gravid wild colubrids gravid and laying. Yet, all of us put together will see how many wild eggs in the next couple of months????? So I ask, why clear tupperware? Why not try to make their nesting dark and SAFE??? Its not hard, in fact, its very very easy.

I have no problems nesting snakes in crappy nest boxes, but whats the point, why not give them what they are looking for, not what we want to force on them????? WILL SOMEONE help me out here??? For something as important as laying eggs, why not put out some tiny bit of effort?? Answer my questions please, hahahahahahahahahaha Anyone got some answers, hahahahahahaha

possibly most herpers are males and have no idea what its like to make a "nest" or what goes into laying an egg, hahaha...
do you suppose if we could get away with giving our women tupperware delivery rooms, it would happen?
I worked with a surgeon for 15 years, he used to say (paraphrased), "if you do a good operation, the patient will do well". uh, no kidding, but think of all the planning that goes into doing a good operation. I guess that it might apply to other endeavors?

oh well.

daveb
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vote in '08
chris cornell for van halen lead singer...

I agree.

Not all calcium is as easily usable, and since calcium is needed for the yolk, shell, and for the snake herself - the calcium from a malnourished mouse may not be enough.

The USDA requires that Vitamin D be added to milk because without the Vitamin D, our species is not as able to utilize the calcium in that milk.

I do not know what is involved in the utilization of calcium from prey animals in reptiles, but it would be very surprising to if other nutrients/elements were not required. Lack those other components because a breeder chose to use cheap dog food instead of rodent food, and it would not surprise me if the snake was not able to get everything it needed from the rodent for healthy reproduction.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

No offense, but reproduction is not the highest demand for calicum. Not even close.

If your food items were a problem, it would show up in growth. During rapid growth, the bone structure of a growing snake doubles or triples each month. You would see it here.

Also with unhealthy females(calicum def.) that deficency shows up in bone loss. This is indicated by knots forming on the backbone as the calicum is depleted.

Again, the answer to your concern is very easy to find out, just take a frozen mouse, thaw it out and check its bones. If you break its leg, it should snap. If it does, its strong and has enough calicum. If it bends like rubber, there MAY be a problem.

In my opinion, your simply blaming the easist "escape goat" you can find. Again, tank it on the chin and then figure out what you did wrong. Besides, why are you the one with the problem. Does your mouse producer only sell to you????????

Consider, my questions about why snakes can lay infertiles without a problem, goes unanswered. Cheers

"No offense,"

Drop the pretext, it doesn't suit you.

"reproduction is not the highest demand for calicum. Not even close. "

And how have you determined this? Define demand. Growing snakes ACCUMULATE and store calcium. Laying females LOOSE calcium to the process and lack of adequate stores could place a very sudden and detrimental demand on her.

"If your food items were a problem, it would show up in growth."

Ever consider that the food source was different while rising up the snake.

"During rapid growth, the bone structure of a growing snake doubles or triples each month. You would see it here."

If there wasn't a problem with the food source at that time, no it wouldn't. Again you're assuming most have the same level of control you do.

"Also with unhealthy females(calicum def.) that deficency shows up in bone loss. This is indicated by knots forming on the backbone as the calicum is depleted."

Tempted to ask if you know this from personal experience perhaps in the same year that you starved your king snakes and they started eating each other but I'll resist. Ever consider that reproduction could push a female into a calcium deficiency? Think Frank!!! Nobody asked what would happen if you bred a snake with an obvious deficiency.

"Again, the answer to your concern is very easy to find out, just take a frozen mouse, thaw it out and check its bones. If you break its leg, it should snap. If it does, its strong and has enough calicum. If it bends like rubber, there MAY be a problem."

Halleluiah!!! Two points for FR, for offering a good suggestion to assess the calcium content of food and for finally admitting that poor quality food might be a contributing factor here. You've done well my apprentice!

"In my opinion, your simply blaming the easist "escape goat" you can find. Again, tank it on the chin and then figure out what you did wrong."

Um Frank.....................................................................................................................................THAT'S WHAT HE IS DOING!!!!!!!

"Besides, why are you the one with the problem. Does your mouse producer only sell to you????????"

Classic distraction Frank.

"Consider, my questions about why snakes can lay infertiles without a problem, goes unanswered. Cheers"

Just because sometimes, perhaps most times, slugs are laid without incident does not negate that they frequently can and do cause problems. Your question goes unanswered because it lacked relevance.

I am not sure what you agree with, hahaha... The point I was trying to make is that in general, people should try to make better efforts to provide better nesting and incubation environments.

personally I don't think there is a mass scale nutrient deficiency in commercial rodents. I can't imagine that wild rodents and all the problems they face would be more nutritious (definitely leaner but not more nutrient content). I would imagine a wild snake would eat whatever comes his way instead of waiting for the one with the best nutrient ratio. If your supplier is sending you rubber mice, have a bag of them analyzed or switch suppliers. Check out the link below, its one of the more interesting things I have found on the web (at least related to herpetoculture, hahaha). Show it to your vet. if your vet can tell you how much or how little calcium ( or any other mineral or nutrient) is required by a snake for sound reproductive health, I need to talk to them as my vet can't and he is pretty good.

BTW, get outside and synthesize your own vitamin D and stop relying on the government to take care of you, lol!

daveb
Nutrient Composition of Whole Vertebrate Prey Fed in Zoos

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vote in '08
chris cornell for van halen lead singer...

Yes - a wild kingsnake will eat whatever rodent comes its way, and whatever lizard, and probably more of the latter - at least according to every field guide I've read - as well as experience with both hatchling and adult kings on a "feeding strike" when it comes to rodents but seem more that willing to pound lizards before you can bat an eye.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

A herper I know with a minimal 40 years experience told me guys like him, meaning other veteran herpers have discussed this many times. Lots of similar points from this thread were probably brought up but one thing they mentioned no one else has is this.
We just assume that the rodents in nature are inferior as a source of nutrition since ones in captivity are fed on a scientificly concocted diet. This may not be true.
For all we know the dirt or whatever they live in, the water they manage to find, the food sources they consume may be superior to anything made by people. After all it is nature and these animals we feed our snakes have been thriving in nature for how many kabillion years?

Another thing worth mentioning is I had a fair share of infertiles last season and spoke with the same herper about a vitamin supplement he swore by. Not so much by his own experience but from a few of his friends. I mentioned this to someone in conversation and got the opposite opinion. This guy said he would go as far as to say he would NOT do business with anyone who supplemented the food with anything. He felt it may mean the offspring from supplemeted adults may be in need of the same supplements to thrive, when snakes not given anything other than their regular rodents should and often do just fine.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Dude your snake did not get egg bound because of calcium. Every half ass herp vet LOVES to throw around the calcium deficiency diagnosis for just about everything. That is not what it is. Period. Listen to what people are telling you.

OK.

Let's step back a minute.

In the original post, I used the following language:

I have to wonder if the jump in rodent food prices has resulted in lower quality feed being used.

Let's please note that is not a definitive statement.

The pictures of the eggs are here in another post, and you can clearly see that they are not properly calcified.

What is the reason for that?
I do not know.

I doubt it was the fact that I did not use FRs method for nesting box. I have no doubt that his methos is superior, but it should be noted that there are many breeders who have been breeding colubrids for decades and have been responsible for just as many new morphs as FR who have published books giving the same instructions for nesting boxes that most people here use.

These well known breeders have very good success with their breeding. So while FRs method may be more natural, given that there is huge success with the "status quo" method *and* the fact that she laid well within reasonable period of time *and* the fact that she had a perfect clutch last year under the same conditions makes me highly doubt that the reason the last two eggs did not come down the pipe was for the reason FR is trying to say.

I respect him, but I have to use my own brain and logic and it just doesn't match.

Furthermore - the logic FR is pushing is that snake nesting under the current method is different from the wild. Guess what - the identical logic applies to diet. Diet is vastly different from diet in the wild. Especially with kings which chiefly feed upon a completely different type of animal.

Rodent chow has gone up in price. Corn prices have shot up as a result of ethanol and increased gasoline prices. A very large rodent breeder in Colorado was complaining on another forum that his supplier increased the cost of food by 17%. That's a significant jump in price, and very well may tempt rodent breeders to either switch to dog food or stretch rodent food by mixing it with dog food.

Rodent nutritional needs have been extensively studied and it is well known that while they can live and breed on dog food, they are not as healthy and suffer from nutritional deficiencies themselves.

Are the big suppliers of rodents for the reptile market decreasing the quality of their feed?

I don't know, but I do have to wonder. And if they are, is it impacting the nutrition our snakes can get from the rodents? Of course it is, because what they eat is their only source of nutrition.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

>>>>The pictures of the eggs are here in another post, and you can clearly see that they are not properly calcified.

HAHAHAHA. Those eggs are calcified just fine!!! They are not good looking eggs by a long shot but they are calcified. If they weren't you would be able to see through them. in fact those little bumps are actually excess calcification

>>>I doubt it was the fact that I did not use FRs method for nesting box. I have no doubt that his methos is superior, but it should be noted that there are many breeders who have been breeding colubrids for decades and have been responsible for just as many new morphs as FR who have published books giving the same instructions for nesting boxes that most people here use.

You are really getting me going now. ROTFLMAO literally. What do you consider success??? There are MANY "professionals" who have frequent...problems. Low hatch rates, poor hatchling survival, poor feeding response, occassionaly egg binding. Just because someone can scrape together enough money each year to slap up a website or write a book DOES NOT MAKE THEM RIGHT! Please see my post below for more about this. So I ask again what do you consider success??

Let me tell you a story. The first king I ever bred I gave a clear nest box. She laid two eggs and retained too more. Luckily she lived. I then went and learned. The next year I got 18 perfect eggs from her in two different clutches because I swallowed my pride and made changes. I have bred nearly 100 clutches since then and have NEVER had an eggbound female. I have nearly 100% fertility and hatch rates.

I will take this moment to stroke you ego for a second. Sometimes thigs just happen. Not often. But they do. Wierd infections, viruses, anatomical deformities, brief exposure to improper conditions, toxicity....ANYTHING could have happened that is beyond your control. So anyone can ALWAYS excuse away anything bad that happens... but personally I blame no one but me when the poop hits the fan.

>>> FR is pushing is that snake nesting under the current method is different from the wild. Guess what - the identical logic applies to diet. Diet is vastly different from diet in the wild. Especially with kings which chiefly feed upon a completely different type of animal.

I agree with you completely about nutrtion being important and that captive diets are different than wild ones... maybe even with negative effects... but thats still not why your snake died.

>>>Rodent nutritional needs have been extensively studied and it is well known that while they can live and breed on dog food, they are not as healthy and suffer from nutritional deficiencies themselves.

OK show me a study that shows that rodents fed dog food are defiecient in calcium. I would love to see one, especially since I raised a lot of reptiles on dog food fed mice. Also exactly how many mice have you done a nutritional analysis on?? I can tell you that drying a mouse to do it smells real nice. And guess what...never found a mouse that was low in Ca. Like FR said, if they were, they would have bendy bones.

Just do me a favor, because I actually care about your snakes. Go outside next spring and paint your nest boxes black. It will take you 15 minutes. After that, do whatever the heck you want.

First - let's stop with the mocking.
I know it's the internet and people are much more likely to behave differently online than they are when you meet them face to face - but all the laughing does is create malcontent between people, it does absolutely nothing to help each other understand perspectives and points. To do it in a thread about an animal that died is particularly insensitive.

Those eggs are calcified just fine!!! They are not good looking eggs by a long shot but they are calcified. If they weren't you would be able to see through them. in fact those little bumps are actually excess calcification

Perhaps you are right. What then causes the excess calcification?

You are really getting me going now. ROTFLMAO literally. What do you consider success??? There are MANY "professionals" who have frequent...problems. Low hatch rates, poor hatchling survival, poor feeding response, occassionaly egg binding. Just because someone can scrape together enough money each year to slap up a website or write a book DOES NOT MAKE THEM RIGHT! Please see my post below for more about this. So I ask again what do you consider success??

I think Kathy Love qualifies as a succesful breeder. Both Kathy and Bill Love are extremely intelligent people who understand herp husbandry well beyond what 99% of us ever will.

OK show me a study that shows that rodents fed dog food are defiecient in calcium.

As I stated in another post - nutrients very often need other components for them to be properly utilized. The calcium has to be removed from the bone and other sources and stored in a manner in which it can later be utilized by the animal when needed. That's why basking herps suffer calcium deficiency if they do not get enough D3. I know snakes probably don't need the D3 - but there certainly are other nutritional factors involved in the proper absorption and utilization of calcium.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Sorry if you feel like I am mocking you, but I laugh a lot. And I would laugh at you in person too. I am not an internet warrior, I do not say things I don't believe, I don't sugarcoat things, and I don't hide behind an alias like many others.

If your ever at the Denver expo, or going herping in CO look me up.

Not a study - but

www.rmca.org/Articles/homemadediet.htm

making a diet that is nutritionally complete for your rat or mouse is not trivial.

We can see that the daily nutrient requirements of the rat are very similar to that of the human. Notable exceptions, however, are calcium, manganese, vitamin K, and vitamin B12 -- rats need 130%, 130%, 490%, and 290% more, respectively, of these nutrients than we do! Calcium deficiency results in stunted growth, osteoporosis, rear leg paralysis, and internal bleeding.

Commercial rat/mouse foods are heavily-fortified for the specific, complete, and balanced needs of rats and mice, but large intakes of other heavily-fortified foods like dog food or Total cereal can easily throw off this balance.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Oh my SIDES!!! AH HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH!!!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHEHEHEHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAAA.

Sorry. That was pretty funny, though.

Chris

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"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

In fairness - it references its sources for the nutritional data.

And Rat breeders can be just as passionate about their pets as we are.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Always thought you were a pretty strait up guy but you don't seem to be listening to the conversation here. The eggs were not laid late and calcification was not as complete as last year. It's pretty simple really. Nobody is saying FR observations on nesting and hydration are wrong, just that they don't apply in this case.

Actually that last sentence is not completely true, I call FR out as dead wrong or at least out in left field. He comes up with some good stuff every now and again but you increasingly have to sift through a lot of nonesence to get to it. Personally I'm tired of sorting through a tablespoon of fly poop to find a tiny pinch of pepper. If he didn't so frequently put out really bad information I wouldn't bother even opening his posts.

The guy may have made a big contribution to this hobby I don't know but he now comes across as a bitter old dude that can't stand someone else contributing to our body of knowledge and tears them down as a result. If I had to limit myself to what FR knows, I'd find another hobby.

>>> ..."Personally I'm tired of sorting through a tablespoon of fly poop to find a tiny pinch of pepper".

Now THAT is a very accurate analogy,.....not to mention very funny as well!..LOL!!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Tony

I am listening to this thread. Its actually a very simple concept that can be summed up into one sentence. A snake died from partial eggbinding which has nothing to do with calcium although there are many other likely causes that the original poster refuses to listen to. How was that?

His problems have nothing to do with calcium. Period. Look at his eggs posted below. They are not undercalcified!!!

I have personally done nutritional analysis on whole prey animals. (I am a vet student) I have also studied thoroughly the disease process behind MBD, nutritional secondary hyperthyroidism, and various other reptilian nutritional disorders.

Snakes get EVERYTHING they need from whole prey. Now if you go back, I also said I disagree with frank that the quality of food does indeed matter. And that a captive diet of lab mice may not be as good as a varied wild diet. Colubrids do not require UV light to absorb enough calcium, and even the most undernourished mice have plenty of it. Unless you are simply underfeeding, or are feeding obviously diseased mice, this is not a problem.

There are many very obvious causes for eggbinding which are going on here. If you disagree with what I am saying thats your prerogative.

As a side note - while doing a lot of looking, I didn't find a credible case with snakes where calcium deficiency was sited as the cause. Lizards, birds, turtles - yes, but not calcium.

If those eggs are not poorly calcified then I would like to know what causes the condition they are in.

For the cause of her binding I'm going with a big clutch (10 compared to last years 5) combined with lack of proper muscle tone.

I am going to switch to live prey for breeding females. Not for every meal, but for many of them.

I'm also thinking about setting up a 20 long with obstacles as a jungle gym. Let a mouse run through it for an hour, take mouse out, and then put the snake in. Let it hunt around the obstacles looking for the mouse it smells.

Probably not every feeding, but probably more often with the first time breeders.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Lizards, birds, turtles - yes, but not calcium.

should be

Lizards, birds, turtles - yes, but not snakes.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

"Over the last forty five or so years, I have found that diet is the LEAST item responsible for common reptile problems. "

Umm I think you need to forget what you think you know. Frank I've heard you time and again talk about this and you are absolutly completely off base!!!!!

Diet and quality of food matters! PERIOD. You can tell be the results and you can tell by the vorasity with which fresher higher quality food is taken. BTW so does providing access to water, good ventilation and cleaning the cage every now and again. If I listend to you I would be feeding my animals garbage, in a dank, humid, hardly ever cleaned cage and everything would be honkie dorry.

You know, not everyone here is a herp hermit raising their own food and has the level of control that you do. People who are buying lab surplus and through pet stores or otherwise have no idea of the age and condititons under which their feeders were preped need to know that better quality food matter and it matters alot.

n/p
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Do you ever read your own posts, hahahahahahahaha your silly. And thats about the complete explination for you.

I am not bragging but, many of the morphs and species ON THIS FORUM, came from me. Which is what we call results.

Also, the QUALITY of results is still pretty much unmatched. But I guess results and reality mean nothing to you.

In this particular case, if you want to use clear tupperware for nesting, then see such things as eggbinding, go ahead. Its your problem.

But you still do not answer my questions as to why don't we commonly find snake eggs in nature? If they laid where the lite shines, we would find them all the time. But then, this is NOT about the snakes is it? Yes, I think your funny. Cheers

"I am not bragging but, many of the morphs and species ON THIS FORUM, came from me. Which is what we call results."

First off, yes you are too bagging, and I might add, in a manner that completely lacks relevance to the discussion.

As for the species on this forum coming form you, perhaps you are the Great Grand Dad of herpetoculture but you consistently fail to recognize that the F37 generation that most novice keepers pick up form a pet store is a completely different animal from the founding stock or F1 or 2 generations you started with. You started with stocks that were lean mean rodent processing machines who's metabolism and fitness had been tested by eons of evolution. They could take advantage of feast and endure famine. Joe Average however is dealing with something that been passed through an extreme artificial selection bottleneck to simply look pretty. In all likelihood most contains a conglomeration of genes that prescribe conflicting behaviors and metabolisms for which your purple-hazed, back in the day, recollections offer far less value than you appriciate.

"Also, the QUALITY of results is still pretty much unmatched. But I guess results and reality mean nothing to you."

Yes Frank, results do matter to me and I routinely achieve the exact results I look for. The REALITY here is that I am not taking issue with your results and you have no cause to take shots at mine but again you are just arrogant enough to believe that because I don't agree with you I must be doing everything wrong.

What I am taking issue with here Frank is your communication skills or lack there of. You consistently put out incomplete and misleading information that if read by novice keepers could prove detrimental. As I said in my previous post not all of us here are hi mountain herp hermits with access to the stocks and control over food supplies like you. Because you characteristically fail to recognize this you say some really stupid stuff.

CHEERS!!

No - it is not common to find kingsnake eggs in nature.
It's also not common to find kingsnakes that feed exclusively on lab grown rodents that have been killed with carbon dioxide and then frozen. In the case of the California Kingsnake, they feed chiefly on reptiles, do they not?

It's odd that a completely different than nature lay box is so easily seen as the cause and a completely different than nature diet is not.

The eggs that she did lay were clearly not normal, and quite different from what she laid last year - which were picture perfect under identical laying conditions.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

If a female cannot find a suitable nest, she may retain the eggs longer, waiting of you will to find a spot. Coupled with other factors, this can lead to egg binding.

Providing a choice of nest boxes and a nice deep, dark nest box is easily done, and it helps alot. Assessing reptile nutrition is not as easy.

Supplementing calcium is easy and doesn't hurt. Most people who do this do so to play it safe. They don't really know if it matters or not.

I know one large breeder who, like FR, wasn't concerned with supplements and calcium and such. He fed regular white mice to snakes, with the mice being fed regular rodent chow. Originally his cages were larger, with an underground dark area where the females would lay. When the breeder went to sweaterboxes, he experienced egg binding in some females. Now he uses sweaterboxes for raising snakes but breeders get the original style cages. Just saying.
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Mark

Right - but in this case, the clutch came 6 days after prelay shed, 7 to 10 days is typical - so in this case, retention of clutch does not seem to be the cause.

The egg binding was only with the last eggs - the first 8 eggs came out on their own (1 obvious dud 7 fertile).
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I decided my old sig was too big.

n/p
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Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

I hear you, I did get that wrong.

For what it is worth, the deeper, darker nest box idea is easy to try in the future. And I think it will make a difference for you, coupled with hydration and maybe calcium supplementation.

Anything is worth trying to avoid egg binding. It must be very painful for the snake.

I think sweaterboxes make good cages but sometimes fall short for some gravid females looking to lay eggs. This is a very unpopular opinion here because sweaterboxes are the defacto standard for breeding snakes.
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Mark

" I think sweaterboxes make good cages but sometimes fall short for some gravid females looking to lay eggs. This is a very unpopular opinion here because sweaterboxes are the defacto standard for breeding snakes. "

Good point and I completely agree!!!

Most of my female kings and milks were in 20 gallon long tanks back when I bred in the early/mid nineties, while males were in sweaterboxes. Lots of space, lots of height, and had great results.

Of course, 20 gallon longs are very space consuming, so that is why sweaterboxes for everything is very common and honestly, more practical for space reasons.

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Genesis 1:1

In my opinion, every little facet of something that is done, or NOT done can play a significant role in the outcome of things such as successful egg laying in this case. Food, calcium, water, space to exercise in to keep good muscle tone, and prevent getting lazy, and out of shape, etc...

To be quite honest, It can be virtually impossible to come to any one hard "blanket" reason, or conclusion as to why egg laying can be successful, or unsuccessful on any given occasion. I think it can depend on many factors, and quite frankly, I don't think we will ever know EXACTLY what they all are for sure,....a good idea, yes, but that's probably about it.

When I think back on some of the snake's I've caught in the wild, it sure seems like they were amazingly strong and well toned when compared to many that live their entire life in a sweater box. So it only makes perfect sense that this, as well as many other factors can EASILY make all the difference in the world when it comes to pushing the last one or two eggs out during egg laying. Acres and Acres of land is a far cry from a sweater box, and I'll bet egg-binding happens far less in the wild given the amount of muscle excercise, and stamina they would develop on average compared to their "dormant" couterparts in our small plastic sweaterboxes. Regardless of their less than optimum conditions, I think they still have an amazingly high success rate when you really think about it. It's almost like forcing a sheep to give birth to young while only living in a "veal cage".

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Great post Doug!!

I agree with you in particular about snakes in the wild being more muscle toned and they themselves having a huge difference in their lives compared to our captive snakes, and that is endless space. They may or may not travel miles and miles for an entire lifetime, but what they have is endless space and the opportunities of infinite exercise, resulting in specimens that don't have all the excess weight in many snakes today in captivity. In captivity, they have what we give them: A sweaterbox, shoebox, or aquarium, and all the square inches and feet that come with each enclosure. Oh boy...LOL!! That alone could be a factor in the issue of laying eggs and the success of doing so.

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Genesis 1:1

Yes, it does seem a little ironic to overlook the fairly obvious!,....certainly this MUST play at least a fair role in the scheme of egg-laying, and probably other things as well.

later Billy!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

My strongest snakes are wild caught and remain stronger than casptive bred snakes even years later.

My WC2000 cal king is by far the strongest cal king I have - and he eats less than the CB snakes I have.

Thus - there is a good chance something about our husbandry of the little ones is very lacking.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Yes,....and not very surprising either. I have some W/C stuff as well, and they definitely seem to display a lot of strength in comparison to some others.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Indeed!

In what they do and how they live captive snakes are almost completely different animals from their wild kin. I increasingly ask myself how someone (me) who is supposed to like snakes so much can justify keeping them in such minimalized conditions.

This is one reason I've moved to keeping mostly smaller species and raise all my animals in a manner such that they don't max out in 18 months. It takes me 3 - 4 years to raise thayeri to sexual maturity and at that a big one is about 30". They reliably lay 6 - 8 viable well-calcified eggs that hatch out relatively large and vigorous neonates.

Before anyone gets their panties in a wad, I'm not throwing stones at those who are interested in growing their animals bigger and faster and getting max production but I am saying that there are other ways to measure success than cranking out reptiles by the numbers. What I do simply works for me, it meshes with how I value my time and the animals under my care.

Its really very simple.

Providing a good nest area takes WORK. And people don't buy colubrids for the work. People get corns and kings because they are great intro snakes. Then they grow to like them so they buy lots of them. and they can take care of lots of them because the snakes are EASY and let people CUT CORNERS.

If people wanted to stretch their brains they'd try breeding monitors! HAHA

Its important to realize that not all people who use a clear laying tub have problems. in fact the opposite is true. So people see others do it, mostly successfully, and then they do it too only they botch it up...or their particular young/underfed/whatever animal can't handle it.

Going farther... No one makes a decent nest box that you can just go buy...at least not one that fits in a drawer tub. So creating a nest box takes work. they must be painted or taped or something. I am seriously thinking about getting some molds made and producing some.

Here is one of my king cages. (very similar to my drawers) I consider this box the MINIMUM requirements. Its a shoebox covered in duct tape and filled with spagnum. Never had egg binding issues with this set up. I would love to do deep tubs like frank but I simply don't have the space. No ones fault but mine....

Cheers

Sorry to hear that Funky. She was a beauty. Are you planning on a necropsy to see what may have caused either her egg binding or her death?

Sorry again.

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Ace

No, I disposed of the body.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Sorry to hear that, that was a beautiful Cal king. Did you keep any of the hets she produced last year?
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Muhammad Ali

Yes - I have 2.2 from last year, and I expect they will make some beautiful lavenders. It is difficult to visually distinguish them from the locality snakes, and I think the locality up here is a gorgeous locality.

Last night I found a young male (released) about the same size as the hets I have from last year - and while looking at him closely, mine have slightly darker heads and while their white bands are a crisp white down the spine (turning yellow just when they get to the belly) - they aren't as quite of a bright white as the locality I'm in, but very close. The base color which is "mostly black" but not quite as black as Desert Phase seems to be the same, though they are young.

The F2's will be interesting - to see if the normals continue the "Redding Look" or if some of them revert a little to her cream banding, which was not bone white down the spine.

I'm also hoping the seven good eggs incubating result in some offspring that develop webbing in the banding like the the Antioch locale father I used - I think an F2 lavender with heavy webbing would look really cool.

The webbing on offspring of the male seems difficult to detect until they are about a year old - so I may decide to hold all hatchlings back as I won't have another shot at a webbed cal king cross lavender for awhile.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Wow, very interesting project. I'm thinking the F2's will be white up top like the F1's. If so, those will be gorgeous! The webbing will be a nice look as well. Are you planning to keep breeding back to your local to get them as white as possible?
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Muhammad Ali

Yes - I'm looking for a female of my locale.
Once I produce some lavenders, I'm hoping to cross them back to the locale again to make another set of hets.

I haven't gone out as much this year as I would have liked. The one I found last night - I wasn't out hunting, I was walking to the store. He's the third Cal King (and third male) I've found on the road between my house and the main road when not specifically looking.

I had a young female of my locale though she escaped with my failed lidless experiment rack. Three actually escaped, she is the only one that didn't turn up.

I guess if one is going to get out, one that was collected about a mile from my home (railroad tracks) is the best one to get out ...
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I decided my old sig was too big.

That's cool you can find them so close by, you should walk to that store all the time. lol I'm sure you'll turn up a female before you know it. And about the failed lidless rack, that's the big thing that keeps me from making one.
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Muhammad Ali

sorry to hear man. death becomes us all...
i hope the eggs make it for you.
i dont supplement females but i know many breeders who do, the thing w/D3 is overdosing causing buildup which cant be processed. for my mommas i just give them a big variety throughout ovulation everything from a handfull of pinky mice to fuzzies,adult mice.pink&fuzz rats and small&med. rats, occasional chick/quail big meals, switching up every feeding, after laying i usally give them all just adult mice moderately/weekly but they eat approx twice as much as my males yearly, its funny though because times ive had egg binding was from fat/obese females so i try to keep them lean to a point, i remember joe lazlo telling me(then 13yrs.old) keep um lean! biggest problem in captivity is obesety, just the way he said it was classic though(being chunky himself)funny but hit home also and has always stuck w/me
anyway best w.the eggies ,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

There's a whole list of potential causes but most times I think retention is related to the female holding eggs too long because she has not found her optimal laying conditions. Things are either too wet to dry to hot to cold.... Those optimal conditions can seem to change year to year so you just have to stay on top of it. Some snakes can be quite specific others just don’t seem to care. I have a corn that lays in the open every year even though she has a large, deep and dark nesting box available to her.

I’ve also seen infertile eggs as a cause. They seem to impact or fuse together into something that just isn’t layable.

Another big factor in my view is what I call being cage lazy. Animals with poor muscle tone are more prone to having trouble during egg laying than those that are not. This is often a factor of individual genetics but IMHO, it can't hurt to look at improving the overall health of your animals by improving the food supply. People do better on a diet of less but higher quality food and I would bet that this applies to most vertebrates, snakes included. Regardless of what anyone says, the quality of food matters, it matters from a nutritional standpoint and it matters to the animals who take fresher, properly processed prey items much more readily than the run of the mill lab surplus garbage we generally find available.

This was not caused by her holding on too long.

Prelay shed - 5/2
Six good eggs - 5/8
Single good egg - 5/9

Six days after her shed, she did the main laying. For whatever reasons, the final 3 did not come out during main lay - with one of the three coming out the day after main round of laying.

Had she retained them for 2 weeks that might have been the case, but she got one dud and seven eggs out within a week of prelay shed. That's not unusual.

The good eggs however are not as properly calcified as her clutch last year or the amel's clutch this year.

Taken a few minutes ago -

Not a pretty clutch. They seem to be developing fine (10 days old now) but the shells are not what they should be.
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I decided my old sig was too big.

Thats an interesting thought about muscle tone Tony. Something additional to consider
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Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

I'm sorry to hear you lost a snake. It's sad and frustrating all at the same time. You tend to feel somewhat responsible since you're caring for these animals.
Hopefully your few eggs will make it. Hold a few back and keep one or a pair as a memory of the mother.
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Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"