Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a w/c scarlet king, about 16" long, and I have had it for about 2 weeks now. The guy I got it from was able to get it to take a pinkie about 3-4 weeks ago, but everything I have tried has failed. I had tried F/T as well as some live, and he/she just ignores them even when I leave it in there overnight. I have tried putting them together in a smaller deli cup, same deal...nothing.

Is there anything else i can try and feed it. I have heard of feeding them anoles, but I live in Lexington, KY and don't have access.

Any ideas would be great. I have wanted one of these since I was little, and I'd hate to lose it.

FTR, I have 5 other snakes and have never had an issue with feeding before.

Thanks,

Podge

n/p
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

...from a page I made a few years ago..it may help.

Caring for young scarlet kings (Lampropeltis triangulum elapsoides) can be a lot of work. Because of their small size they require much more attention than most other king snakes and milk snakes. Especially at the neonate stage. Below are some hints and observations to help care for them.

Housing
Set- up can be as elaborate as you want, but simpler probably is better. I avoid a lot of "furniture" for the very small babies, as they can get "lost" in it and dry out QUICKLY. I use a small deli container that has a water bowl, a hide box, and substrate that is easily checked and cleaned. For young scarlet kings a simple home can be made from an 8 oz. deli cup (air holes of about1/16" in diameter punched in it around perimeter) along with two 1/2 to 1 oz. containers w/lid for one (the kind you might put mayo in at a restaurant). Holes for access are cut in them. In 1(placed upside down with lid on) put moistened sphagnum moss. In the other (placed right side up) will need to be fresh water for drinking. PVC end caps of 1" to 1 1/2" diameter can also be used as water bowls. They are inexpensive too. The enclosure you choose must be very secure with a tight fitting lid. Many commercial enclosures have loose fitting tops and holes that are big enough for hatchlings to escape. Check yours carefully. Although scarlet kings like to bury themselves, they will also climb, and if given half a chance will escape." Shoe box" type cages are o.k. for juvenile to small adults. Substrate can be paper toweling that is easily monitored for waste or uneaten food items, but does dry out fast. Sphagnum can be used too, but food items tend to get lost or stuck to it. Same with sani-chips or aspen. Make sure the enclosure is neither too dry nor too wet. Snakes can develop skin problems from constant contact with damp substrate.
Providing a hide box filled with damp sphagnum moss and as always, fresh drinking water are a must. Ambient temperatures between 75 and 82 degrees should be maintained.

Feeding
Feeding captive bred scarlet kings is usually not a problem as long as you give them what they want! In the wild scarlet kings seem to prefer anoles and skinks.( I think decaying wood is a major factor in that it feeds termites that feed skinks.. and so on..) Anyway, I try to start the babies on newly hatched anoles because they are readily available where I live. Some will not take a live one and are offered a dead one next. ( Captive hatched scarlet kings seem to be more apt to accept dead prey items). If they still refuse, a baby ground skink or 5 lined skink is offered. Sometimes a tail from either anole or skink can be cut to appropriate sized "bites". For stubborn newborns, a puree of the tail and water is rubbed on the desired food item to induce feeding response. If dead or cut food items are offered, I put them on a small plastic lid to keep track of feeding.. Which item they choose to eat is a key to switching them over to a desired (by you) food item later. I think they can live out their lives just fine on lizard prey items and I really never try to get my scarlet kings to eat anything else until they're much bigger since I always have a supply of feeder lizards. The possibility of introducing parasites from live food items is a consideration. Therefore, freezing food items for a week or so is best. Then thaw them well before feeding. Some keepers try this method FIRST in order to get their snakes accustomed to eating dead prey. Feed them as often as every 3-4 days to promote a desirable growth rate. I rarely handle these snakes( as they can be nervous and easily stressed), and never handle them just after a meal. When you've established a good feeding regimen they will respond and do well. Many people are frustrated when they try to get their scarlet kings to eat rodents. They'll try scenting mouse tails or pinkie mouse parts with the preferred food item as well as many other "tricks". For some it works, others it does not. Remember that keepers and snakes are individuals. When they ARE big enough, I'll rub a freshly taken tail (of the lizard species they've been feeding on) over the smallest pinkie mouse I can find, and try that.
Again, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't .It seems every keeper has his or her method and many different ones have worked. I do hear from customers who have little or no trouble with feeding their babies. I suspect many are experienced keepers and are willing to go the extra mile when caring for theirs. They knew what they were up against and did their homework BEFORE buying one .Some are very dedicated and quite resourceful. A man I know got his hatchling to eat pinkies (parts first) by scenting with chicken soup- like you might do to get a stubborn python to feed on thawed rats ! In a year it was on (small) pinks. So you can be hopeful. Be very attentive to them.
I have had babies that are eating well and otherwise in good shape die without showing any symptoms. It can be very frustrating and sad to lose an animal after so much work. You will get attached to them! You can expect a shedding cycle about every 6 weeks or so. More often if they are eating and growing well. They will probably refuse food during this time. Watch to make sure all skin is shed, paying close attention to the eye caps and the tip of the tail. Again, moist sphagnum seems to help them through this process. When shed is complete, resume feeding as usual.

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

excellent reference! Thanks!

ground skinks their jerky movements are good trigger for a feeding response and they are good for scenting as well. also good tight secure hides are a must for w/c scarlets they stress out REALLY easy.
best of luck
,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

So what you're saying is,....the guy "said" it only ate once, right?,.....do you know that to be a FACT?,...this could easily be a little "white lie" for your benefit too, but if so, duplicate the EXACT conditions he had it in before.

I can tell you from experience that they DON'T do well in a large open cage or aquarium. They need to be kept in tight small quarters such as a small plastic shoebox with a couple different very small, low-profile hideboxes as well. Feeling hidden and secure are EXTREMELY important to the well being of Scarlet Kings, this is something that CANNOT be overlooked, or stressed enough here. Aspen bedding works well too for tunneling in the substrate. And don't forget to keep the lid TIGHT FITTING AND SECURE!!!

Keep the snake for now at a temp of 80-83 degrees, but you MUST do this with an accurate thermometer inside the enclosure on the substrate. Keep it in a fairly dark area as well, or at least put a towel over the box so the nervous snake doesn't see you or others walking about in the room, this will put an immediate hault to it's feeling secure and to feed.

Let it acclimate in the small enclosure for several days before even attempting to give it a meal. When you DO offer it a pinky, do this at night just before going to bed, as they are largely nocturnal, and extremely secretive. SLOOOOWLY take the lid off the enclosure making absolutely sure to not clank and bang the lid while doing so to make sure the snake isn;t disturbed, or notices any commotion at the cage, slowly place the live pinky at the opening notch of the hide, and SLOOOWLY and carefully put the lid back on securely. Again, make sure to keep the snakes enclosure very dark. Hopefully by the morning the pinky will be taken.

If the guy you got it from wasn't lying about it taking a pinky before, this should work if you do it EXACTLY as mentioned above.

best of luck!, ~Doug



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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Doug's got it down... if in fact it will take pinks @ all. Good luck... post some pics -- always enjoy SK shots.

Chris

Thanks for the advice, all of you. I have her in a 15 gallon now, but will transfer her to a 10 (or maybe even smaller) today and add even more cover. What about overhead light? How much should she get daily?

Does anyone sell skink feeders, like F/T?

Keep in mind lots of scarlets are found in the wild crammed between bark and the dying tree it grew on. I'd go with whatever ambient light is just in the room, and give the snake something to cram itself between to simulate that environment they put themselves into.
If I were keeping scarlet kings, I'd probably find the nearest dead pine tree, collect lots of big hunks of pine bark, treat them for bugs in the oven or with salt water, and then just pile them into the tank. The snake would be more than happy to wiggle it's way into the middle of the pile and hang out and be invisible to the rest of the world.

I'd almost say the less you see the snake, the happier it'll be.
I dont keep scarlet kings though LOL. I could be completely wrong about this.
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Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

Well,...to be quite honest, Scarlet Kings can be very difficult to keep for even "well-seasoned" keepers, so when you asked how much light it needed, it got me thinking that a Scarlet King is probably not the best subspecies of milksnake for you, and it's nothing personal at all, but the fact is they are EXTREMELY nervous by nature, and are best reserved for more advanced keepers. If kept exactly as I mentioned in the previous post, and it does NOT eat for you,...I can see the snake could very well be a problem for you.
Please understand, that I sincerely hope the elapsoides does well in your care, but if you can't get it to eat within a two week period or so, I think the snake would be MUCH better off let go in the wild(assuming you live in southeastern U.S.), or put in a more advanced keepers care. I'd hate to see a perfectly healthy Scarlet King wither away and ultimately perish just because a keeper couldn't keep it in a suitable environment where it could thrive.

If it doesn't eat the pinky like "the guy" said it had eaten before, you could have to resort to Anole's, Anole scented Pinks, Ground Skinks, etc... That can be a little more trouble than some might want to deal with.

Please do both you, AND the snake a favor, and put it in a SMALL PLASTIC SHOEBOX like I mentioned before, and loose the 10 or 15 gallon stuff, AND the above lighting idea!.....this is Scarlet King "101" basics.

In any case, good luck with the snake, and I hope it does well.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I am only using ambient lighting for her. It was the suggestion that I keep her in a darker room that led to the question.

I am not offended by any of your comments. I just want her to thrive. I will start on your recommendations this evening.

Thanks!

I hope things go well with the snake!. Also, please read the post "Crimson King" made titled "excerpt", as it has many good points pertaining to the successful husbandry of Scarlet King's. Between all the above suggestions, you should get some good ideas as to what can generally work for them.

Best of luck!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

A fifteen gallon tank for a small Scarlet is a bit excessive.

Indeed, these snakes are quite skittish and oftentimes the only indication that they are still resident in their enclosure is that the food has disappeared.

The 'basking light' you've mentioned is completely unnecessary, as these animals are nocturnal hunters.

Too, I find that the less complicated your set-up, the easier these guys are to maintain.

I have mine in a back-heated rack with a temp. gradient of 80 to 72 F (cooler end dependent upon ambient room temp., obviously).

As a substrate, I use shredded aspen, an inch or two deep.

On one end I place one small, plastic hide box ('Creature Cubbyhole'), and push it down into the aspen allowing only a small gap at the top for the animal to burrow into. On the other end of the enclosure, a small rubbermaid container (with an access hole cut into the side) is provided and filled (loosely) with moss. The moss is kept damp - misted every couple of days.

I provide a water dish at both the front (cooler end), and another smaller one at the back, right against the tub wall. This secondary water source will slowly evaporate (being so close to the heat-source) and provides just the right amount of ambient humidity.

At feeding time, I simply dig a tiny 'nest' into the aspen, put in three or four small, live pinks, and turn out the lights (I always feed my Scarlets overnight).

Unless a particular animal is in shed, the mice will be gone in the morning ...like magic.

One of my WC females was a difficult feeder prior to my having received her and had NEVER taken a pink in captivity. However. utilizing the method described above, she was eating live pinks within just a few weeks of her arrival.

Have patience.

Hope this helps.

Trevor

Thanks Trevor!

I almost forgot about yours way down here!..LOL!

The things you mentioned are indeed great aspects in rearing Scarlet Kings, and I was glad to see that the original poster read your suggestions in addition to the others. This should help a great deal with the snake's chances of thriving.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

get peromyscus mice pinks

russian or chinese hamster pinks

..yes lizards

better to meet the needs and use regular mcie like DMong says.....

easier in the long run

I had them eat peromyscus or regular mice pinks right away....wild caught ones.....and breed and lay.....they aren't that bad......and yes I used shoeboxes at 82 degrees.......with hides

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......

I have seen the mention of "shoe boxes" often enough now to pose the question: you aren't really speaking of actual shoe boxes, correct?

Where can I find a picture of exactly what you are referring to?

Preface by stating that (aside from being a customer) I have no affiliations with the company to which I will provide a link. However, in my enduringly humble opinion, these are wonderful racks.

Anyway, here's an example of the 'shoe boxes' to which others have have alluded;

http://www.reptilebasics.com/Iris-Shoe-Box-Rack-12-or-16-Tub-Sizes-p-16181.html

Trevor

Yes,...quite literally small plastic shoe, or storage boxes.

Sterilite, and RubberMaid, etc... work well, as do several others. Just make absolutely SURE the lid fits good and secure if you don't have a well fitted rack system that they can slide in and out of that allows them to not need a lid.

~Doug


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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I've kept scarlets for over a year with success, so thought I'd throw some ideas out there. I go with disposable tupperware lunch containers...about 4x8x1...for adult scarlet kings...seems cramped, but they thrive in these quarters for me. I'm talking about NC locale animals, so we're talking 14-18 inches here. I poke small holes in the sides with a small nail. I put my scarlets in this container and then place the container inside of a tub in my rack...just a second level of security should they find a way out of the first container.

I fold newspaper or paper towels several layers thick and make sure that there are several irregularities in the folds of paper for the snakes to fit into. I use the pipe fittings from Lowes hardware for the waterbowls. I have not added a humidity hide, but feel that the cramped quarters, along with the small air holes, keep the humidity up with the presence of the water bowl.

As for feeding, I scent with five lined skinks or ground skinks. I just keep a few in the freezer at any given time. Washing the pinks thoroughly, then just squeezing the body fluids from the skink onto the pink afterward.

I personally have found the scarlet kings to be easier than mole kings.

Thanks,
Michael

would you sell some frozen skinks to me? Seriously, Lexington KY is a tough place to cater to herpers? I am absolutely serious.

Thanks!

Check out Rodentpro or one of the other rodent companies. They send you quantities of frozen rodents on dry ice. I've been buying from them for years.

Thanks,
Michael