Reptile & Amphibian Forums

thought id share a smile

Awesome Chris!,....I've always liked those sticticeps!.......good luck with the clutch!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Now if i had your photo expertise ,that would be cool i will email you when i buy a new camera,if you dont mind because your pics are awesome.......C

SWEET!!!! Very cool. Nice looking female. Where'd she come from?
I'll be having some eggs next year.

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Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

it was another Daytona findit came from a famous breeder but the name slips my mind right now, and male i have is gorgeous and it came from another individual years ago as a neonate in trade.

Them be some fine looking eggs in that clear nest box! Couldn't resist that. Sorry.

As an aside, I had troubles with my OBK kings not utilizing long fiber sphagnum as a medium. Found that using a 50/50 mix of peat (or shredded coconut husk) and play sand was much preferred.

Of course I'm not to insinuate that coconuts are indigenous to our fair clines here in North Carolina!

Well as a fisherman ,i try not to out smart something that dont think,so i keep it simple and effective,my S. Ga Eastern just laid 17 on spagnum in one of them thar' clear ziplock boxes also,and no lid required ,i did have a snake last lay under the box

Well, if two magratory swallows were to grip it by the husk.....

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Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

I'm not real sure those weight ratios would work even with an African sparrow!

Is that a laden or unladen swallow?

"Doctor, my brain hurts."-Gumby

Definitely a european unladen swallow.

Wait, no...laden

AAAARARARARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!
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Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

What?!?!?!? I don't know....-aaaaaaaagh!
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vote in '08
chris cornell for van halen lead singer...

My faith in humanity is restored!

>>My faith in humanity is restored!

when in doubt, seek the grail. lol...

daveb
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vote in '08
chris cornell for van halen lead singer...

when in doubt seek a shrubbery. Hail to the Python!!

how's the egg laying boxes working for you this year? I keep losing track, are you back up to full scale production?

daveb

"...and you shall chop down the tallest tree in the forest... with a HERRING!!!!"

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vote in '08
chris cornell for van halen lead singer...

I think I have been screwing up. I placed shards of glass in with the eggs and sphagnum to help open the eggs at hatching time and it appears to be slicing the eggs terribly. I am back to full production and sitting on 18 clutches. Has anyone tried sitting on their eggs to incubate? Thats something that has the virtue of never being tried.As long as someone brings me food and beer, maybe I'll go for it I don't know.

"Sleep, the most beautiful experience in life...except for drink."-WC Fields

That's classic. lol
Howie you might need some bandages brought with the beer too. RW

How sweet that is fellas, but why are you all are so darn defensive. Why can't you even consider something else??? you know, even entertain the thought there is something else? not better, no worse, just something else? Surely no one is going to force you to actually do something against your will.

But darn, to be so sensitive you have to go on and on. Your telling me something here guys.

Because I know better(have seen and experienced) I cringe when I see those pics. I do hope you success in hatching them. I really do. But I know how it effected my females, you see, I did exactly what your doing for decades. Now it bothers me.

Please just think about that, why would it bother me, I did it for many many years, then I found a better way(in my warped brain) and that old way makes my cringe, it makes me cringe.

Don't forget I have seen wild nests and they have the same principles as my nesting, tunnel, cave, eggs in the middle, and sealed off. And of course no lite.

Heres a pic of digging up a deep nest. But let me explain, the female will start by making a burrow, then covering it up, then digging it up again. She will then stay down. She will form a nest, lay her eggs, they lay them while crawling in circles, with the head on the outside and the vent in the middle. This way the eggs are stacked exactly in the middle of the nesting cave. She will then crawl out and cover all the holes leading into the nest cave.

In this pic, I dug down to a plate of glass, in most cases, they nest right under the plate. Using this, you can inspect the progress without disturbing the female.

In the next pic, I removed the plate of glass, you can now see the eggs clumped together.

In the third pic, you can see the nesting cave a lot better and how the eggs are spaced in the middle. Remember, the case is roundish, the glass is the top of the cave.

I do have a pic of those eggs hatching.

Don't get me wrong, If they did not have those behaviors, why do they do them, why not just lay the eggs on the surface? Or under the first board/hide? why dig down?

Besides that, what is more interesting, a wad of eggs in a box(in my opinion, it shows your work) or a nesting like they would do in nature(in my opinion, it shows their design and work).

Again, I could give a flying doorknob holder what you folks do, but maybe there are others out there who are interested in the snakes and what they do. So why do you folks hijack those threads, you can just ignore them. Remember, in most cases, the thread was directed at me, NOT YOU/s, the group of three.

Again, TO ME, to nest them in a way adverse to their design is all about the keeper. To force an inferior animal to work OUR way. Thats very common human behavior.

To seek and work for ways to have these wonderful animals express their inherent design, is very much about the animal.

So yes again, the more you guys go on an on, shows me what its all about for you. And I welcome you to do that. But please do not hinder me or others. Thanks

What really woke me up to the critical relevance that nesting plays in reptile reproduction was my failed experiences in getting varanids to nest. When I witnessed the visible stress that occured in my female when she did not have the options she needed (in the face of my best efforts), I began to think of how the nesting options I provided were effecting the herps that don't express their displeasure as outwardly as monitors do. A few years ago, I made the conscious effort to see if my kings, pythons and turtles were also unhappy with the nesting options that I was providing . I began to fill their entire cages with long grain sphagnum as soon as they appeared gravid to me, instead of filling a box. For the turtles, I made the nesting area larger and added another heat lamp. What I found was that my animals no longer paced before laying, they layed quicker and produced a larger quantity of hatchable eggs. This was especially noticeable with the turtles. I went from 1 or 2 clutches a year to eight clutches last year, most of which hatched, as opposed to about a 50% hatch rate prior to the changes. Now, more babies is not what I am after, less stress and a longer life for my females is my goal. More babies is a nice result, but as long as my females stay healthy and don't succumb to reproductive failure, the insignificant effort I made was well worth it. I did however notice that in each year since I made the changes, the number of good eggs has gone up drastically in my kings. My female easterns are now laying clutches of 20-24 egss which is many more than they used to. Een my little 3 foot NJ females dropped clutches of 20 and 21 this month. Has better nesting made this difference? Don't know, don't care, but my girls look and act stronger which is all that matters to me.

Will

my clue came about four years ago when a pine snake was wandering all about in and out of the nest box. I thought *^%$*^$ you foolish thing, use the box ( like you can train a cat to "use" a box), but she wouldn't. then I thought of the misery if she suffered dystocia and found the deepest box I could provide w/o her escaping and stuffed it full of moss. viola, no problems, and we keep on learning here every year.
daveb
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vote in '08
chris cornell for van halen lead singer...

Frank,
The nesting information is great stuff. Keep sharing. Many of us are still learning even after 40 years of keeping snakes.

Forky
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

As a novice, I am learning very much from these discussions, however silly they might become at times. Please continue posting and sharing your findings.
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Diego

Love those pics. I have the same question, why are so many of us so unwilling to try something this simple if it has a chance of reducing the incidence of egg binding?
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Mark

great question has alot to do with DENIAL i reckon and also that 4letter word w o r k ... many of us have and do raise colubrids first and foremost hopefully for love but money does rear its head. with the effiecancy of rack systems many corns,kings,milks are raised their whole life in a 30to40 sometimes 60quart box just think of that for a moment its the equivelant of being raised in a bathroom or 10X10 cell now snakes aint people but its imho something to consider.
what FR reminds us of is they being ectotherms require CHOICES in temps,substrates, and caging etc. folks dont want to consider things like that, things like that involve thought, planning, and work. in this techno age folks want EASY EZ.
now surely snakes can be reared in sweater boxes their whole lives and even reproduce with little in way of CHOICES and when breakdowns (deaths) happen the neysayers can say aww it must of been calcium or this or that overlooking the OBVIOUS with all of their knowledge cuz the can spel so goode and are so smrta...
providing choices cant hurt and really it comes down to either you maintain them with marginal success or you provide them w/the means to THRIVE and have great success.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

That, to me, is undeniable evidence of nesting done right! I really look forward to more on this and social behaviors between groups Frank. Thanks for pushing on through the fog!
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Todd Hughes

so, what have you learned about incubating?
once the females lay in that nest box, do you remove the eggs and put them in a box into an incubator of some sort/scale or do you incubate them right there? If That is where the female chose to lay them obviously that is the spot where she feels they will be most successful?
when i get an egg(s) I expect it to hatch, period. i don't know why I am so presumptuous. mating and laying seems like much more work, getting the eggs is much more like a holiday than actually hatching them out. Don't get me wrong, offspring are great but reptile eggs are such cool devices.

daveb
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vote in '08
chris cornell for van halen lead singer...

"Why can't you even consider something else??? you know, even entertain the thought there is something else? not better, no worse, just something else? "

That's really quite funny Frank because I would ask the same thing of you. Its not that you've said anything completely wrong in our last exchanges but you speak in absolutes that are ridiculous. Examples:

There is more to keeping kings together than simply not starving them.

Yes, improper hydration and nesting spots ARE THE critical elements leading to egg binding. In sticking to those ideas (good ones) to the exclusion of all else you missed the point of the question and instead found an opportunity to ridicule someone. At issue in the last exchange was why where the eggs not as well calcified as last year and instead of talking about all the possible causes, like time and frequency of breeding, temps, diet (quantity and quality) ect..... we talked about what the cause obviously wasn't.

I am sorry, but its you that think in ways like absolute. Having bred these things since the early sixties, I already understand the progression of learning and experience.

The problem is, much of what you say and are now doing, was done in the early seventies. And it was done by me and other pioneers.

Which is very much "A" key point. I would guess what bothers me the most about your stype of keeping is, ITS SO FRIGGIN OLD.

I have a strange feeling, none of what you say is about the snakes or right or wrong. Its all about your stage of learning, you appear to want what your doing to be current and cutting edge. The problem is, what your doing is old fashioned and been done for decades by thousands of others. That is the sad reality, it may be new and current to you.

This sweaterbox, tupperware rack systems, method was not about the snakes back then and it is not about snakes now. It was all about streamlining a successful method to mass produce certain species. Which as I said, is what commerical breeders such as those in Fla. that produce tens of thousands of colubrids, should utilize. But its really not meant for private keepers. I would think, and I know I could be wrong, that private keepers, actually keep these reptiles because they like and respect them. So out of respect, they should add something to a base commerical method of keeping. They should both for their own pleasure and the well being of the animal. I would consider that normal. I say, should, because thats what i think, but in reality its COULD, as you have an option to choose. ITs here that your sensitive, it appears you do not want others to think you choose the simplest most convienent methods and not whats best for the animals.

COME ON SIR, there is no way on earth you can rationalize that convient keeping is about the animals. Its about you.

About your absolute, that is more about your way of thinking, and not mine. Also, in nearly every case, your jumping in threads that are not about you, you were not envolved and your name was not brought up. So its about some manner of insecurity on your part. You must ask yourself, why do you feel the need to jump in and ridicule, you know, your snide remarks with no actual meaning. (snide, made in a spirit of mockery)

If you have evidence or support of another view, why not state your point, and support it with results? But you don't, you only want to attack me, even when you agree. Well sir, that one is on you and your insecurities. Remember, I did not go after you or hijack your threads.

You see, If I was totally wrong, and even stupid for that matter, I would not be alone, I would simply be one of a bunch, the norm. I would be one of many that come to these forums and you would ignore me, like you do them. So why all the attention? hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha No need to respond sir, theres only a need for you to think about that.

Remember, I never said those tupperware nest boxes do not work, THEY JUST DO NOT WORK WELL. And if you do not actually learn a better way, then you will never know and you will go on being snide to those who have taken the extra effort. Or do you think tupperware boxes is AN EXTRA EFFORT? hahahahahahahahahahaha there is only one method easier and more convinent that is a water bowl. See, that was a little bit snide. Cheers

"COME ON SIR, there is no way on earth you can rationalize that convient keeping is about the animals. Its about you."

I think all keeping of snakes is about us.

Great post!

I just love those kings -- what locale? Hatteras? Ocracoke? Congratulations......

Jerry Kruse

>>thought id share a smile
>>
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Nice lookin' Mama there, good luck with those eggs! Thanks!
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Todd Hughes