Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Alrighty then-- Been a while since we lost on here---
The story on this guy:

We've had him about 2 months-- always been a good eater. Ate 1 Small-medium rat (Medium rat that was on the small side...)-- He ate the rat on the 16th.
The rat didn't make much of a bulge-- couldn't really tell he'd eaten anything really.
On the 18th-- I still had "left over" rats that I didn't feel like freezing so I gave him another one-- Same size and still didn't really give him a bulge.

I Took this pic last nite (20th) and he HUGE! (took the pic around 11 pm)

I came home today to the most horrid stench in the house-- definatly smelled reptile-- took me 30 minutes to go through all the cages to find him. The mulch is totally saturated with a runny, bloody fluid-- very gross.
Here is the pic of him now-- again-- bigger around that he was even last nite.

All of our snakes are fed in seperate containers-- with no bedding. I have only recently been trying the cypress bedding over newspaper-- but I am paranoid so I feed in a seperate container.
He is in the freezer and may go in for a necropsey this week if the vet can get me in.
The rats I use are high quality-- I know the breeder personally, and have been feeding his rats to my snakes for a long time, and I have actually seen an improvement in the growth of my snakes since going to him for rats-- so I do not feel in anyway that the feeder rat was the cause of death-- but a necropsey will tell. I fed over 40 other snakes last weekend-- from the same supplier and all others are just fine.

Any insight to this would be helpful. Not looking for a lecture-- just perhaps someone else that's experienced this.

Thanks
Beth

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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

Freezing is going to help mask any potential pathogens in case you decide to do a full workup. You should still be able to tell if it had heart/liver/kidney damage. The second Rat may have taxed the body too much in terms of blood flow and renal function, but the necropsy will tell you more if freezing didn't do much damage.

He's only been in the freezer for 30 min---
i'll put him in the fridge--- it reaks though--- i'll be throwing out a lot of food after this--

It is an extremely foul odor....

very odd..

thanks
Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

Yep - It's gonna be. I would try to find someone who could do it tommorrow. You could open it up yourself and take alot of pictures of whats inside. Maybe go stock up on some baking soda?

was the 2nd rat left unfrozen from the 16th to the 18th and then fed to him?...That may have been the problem if that is the case...I read somewhere that a rat left unfrozen for too long can cause problem...like bloating...read in one forum where a snakes stomache split open because of it

You have to take it easy on males that haven't been eating over the winter. Their systems can't handle large meals right off the bat. You have to get their stomach's and digestive tracks used to digesting food again.

Basically his system was overloaded and died.

Use this as a learning experience for next year.

Corey

He wasn't off feed for the winter-- He was a regular eater in a family-home setting before I got him.

This was not a breeder animal-- He was property of the Oklahoma Reptile Rescue.

The GIANT bulge you see is NOT what I fed him. When he ate the first rat--which was a bit small for his body size, unless you knew he ate-- you couldn't tell.
The 2nd rat was the same size as the first-- and again didn't leave much of a bulge.

The rats he ate were fresh killed. I buy my rats live, and put them in a cage with rat food and fresh water-- which is what I have always done. The rat was killed 30 seconds before he ate it. The rats were healthy before it was killed (by me) -- clear eyes, normal poop, was eating and drinking like a normal healthy rat.

I am needing to emphasize that he WAS NOT THIS BIG AROUND AFTER EATING. I DID NOT FEED HIM 2 GIANT RATS.

Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

Beth, have you had any luck finding a vet to do the necropsy soon? I have no clue as to what might have happened but I think I'd wanna find out ASAP. Good luck, and I'm sorry for your loss.

Quig

Take him to the vet and get an autopsy. We can speculate all day and night, but that will tell you what actually happened.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

Another thing to take into consideration is placement of the dead bodies near the heat source.

If 1 snake 2 rats were directly on heat source, they would all bloat twice as fast, thus exaggerating size.
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www.heatsherps.com

I lost some babies like that a few years ago. From your comments about no other problems I don't think this applies to you but I'll relate it anyway in case it helps anyone.

This was several years ago and the rodent breeder mentioned is no longer in the business. I've had no problems with any current rodent breeders in my area.

One feeding day most of my rat eaters regurgitate about half an hour after feeding. I start comparing notes with another snake breeder using the same rodent breeder and he had the same problem that day. Turns out the employees of the rat breeder where sick of rat mites and found that Permetherine took care of them so sprayed everything down on loading day. That former rat breeder (nice lady by the way) was very apologetic but again note this was NOT anyone who is currently selling rats. The adult rat eaters went back to feeding fine and I never noted any long term problems with them that I attributed to the incident in either the majority that regurgitated or the few that kept the sprayed rats down.

However, I also had a few babies that where mouse eaters. They all kept their meals down but then most of them seemed to die bloated of indigestion a few days after a later non sprayed feeding 2 or 3 weeks down the road. At first I thought I was feeding skinny babies too big of mice but I've never had the problem any other time so I think it must be related to the sprayed rodents. Perhaps the mice where treated with something else as I can't explain the different symptoms from the rat eating adults but it was like they eventually lost their ability to digest.

Can you determine if any of your rodents where exposed to pesticides, even perhaps rodents you feed a few weeks ago?

Right off the bat... this is pure speculation, but is a possible scenario.

How is your heating source holding up? Have you had any recent power outages, failures with your thermostat or found his heat source unplugged?

You say he has been eating regularly throughout the winter, in that case the flora in his digestive tract should have been up to the task.

However, feeding too much at once can cause this problem. What happens is that the snake's digestive tract is unable to produce enough digestive enzymes fast enough to prevent the prey items from essentially rotting or decomposing in your snake's stomach.

As the prey rots it also becomes bloated due to the gases the bacterium living within it are giving off. This bloating will continue as long as the prey is not being digested (and hence killing the bacterium within the rotting prey). Eventually, the snake's stomach will be stretched to the point of bursting. Even if the snake's stomach does not burst the toxic gases and bacterium that are continually leaching into it's system can cause a very serious infection resulting in your snake becoming septic in an extremely short period of time. Death can come within hours.

I'm guessing that the bloody, smelly, slimy fluid you found was not from your snake but from the rotting rat within it. He may have regurgitated this fluid or it may have leaked out after he died and the various muscles within his esophagus relaxed and allowed it to leak out.

The reason I asked about your heating element is that usually a snake can handle being overfed... once in a great while. As long as the prey is just "a little" more than it would regularly eat it should be able to handle it. Here is the kicker: if he doesn't have access to an adequate heat source he won't be able to digest the meal regardless of size and the meal will end up rotting in his gut as described above.

Again, this is just a hypothesis, but something to keep in mind nonetheless.

Bingo. Thats what I think happened also.
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Forever Trust in what we are,and nothing else Matters

After some thought and remembrance of a boa I had some thirty years ago, I'm inclined to believe this is also a concern. He didn't die, but if I hadn't got him to the vet when I did he certainly would have.

Quig

I have a wonderful vet-- and a back up vet in case the first can't get me in-- wonderful things to have.

The situation described about the rats decomposing faster than being digested is very close to what happened. The smell coming from the snake is a mixture of rotting/decomposing/digesting rat mixed with stomach fluids (which are quite foul in reptiles).

I have had problems with flexwatt in the past-- a spot on the flexwatt overheated and burned a hole in some tubs and the rack-- I quit using flexwatt then, but have since gone back because it is a convenient heating method.

I am using a solid strip of 11" flexwatt down the back of my rack-- as I was previously when it overheated--- In this case, there is a section of about 2 foot that is not as warm as the rest. The probe for the tstat is placed in the middle of the rack-- the cooler section of the flexwatt is towards the bottom-- My rack temps are no more than 1-2 degrees different from top tub to bottom tub-- when the flexwatt is working properly.

The flexwatt I had problems with before was purchased from a petstore-- the flexwatt that i am now using, I ordered offline from a distributer that was recommended to me after my last flexwatt problem. The wires are soldered and have a good connection-- the rest of the strip is working fine-- verified by temp gun. The bottom section is noticably cooler-- I can tell by touch.
After my first experience with flexwatt, I am constantly checking my cages, and the temp of the strip-- I went out of town for the weekend-- and neglected to check my temps before I left or when I got back-- which is usually something I do on a weekly basis-- The temps were checked by temp gun in each tub on monday the 12th.

I have contacted the distributer that I got the flexwatt from, they have asked me to roll up my flexwatt and send it to them- so they can see for themselves what the has happened. I went over the dates of feeding and when the last time I checked my temps on the flexwatt. I told them that I, nor the vet, felt that the snake was overfed by any means. I have a letter from the vet, and I am printing out the pictures of the snake that I have-- as well as the other snakes that ate the same size rats.-- they said that if it was a case of faulty flexwatt, that they will mail me, free of charge, a new strip.... woo hoo :~|

They will not reimburse me for the cost of the snake (nothing really) or for the $ spent on the necropsey.

I am rapidly loosing faith once again in flexwatt-- if its not one thing-- its another-- seems that it happens to me a lot more than other people-- at least that I hear of....

There are 2 other tubs that were using the same section of 'dead' flexwatt-- one of those snakes also had 2 rats-- she is a bit larger than the male that died. The 3rd snake that was on the 'dead' flexwatt is the same size as the male, but only ate one rat-- they have been moved to a different rack with properly functioning heat and are under close observation-- but appear to be just fine.

Have you checked the temps on your flexwatt recently?

Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

this is the exact reason that I keep my room at 84 degrees so that if I have any cool spots in the flexwatt (which is more common than distributors would like to admit) it does not effect the snakes ability to digest their meal in a negative way and no bp gets more than a "large" small rat, even the big girls. Luckily I am down to only 3 racks that use flexwatt and those should be phased out this year with vision racks since I think the heat cable is soooo much better. I am sorry for your loss and hope you have no other problems in the future.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I don't think any heating method is foolproof. I had two heating pads fail even though the light on them was still on, but both were cold. Though both were on constantly whereas most I have set on a timer to come on and off...so there is a cool down at night. These are all still working fine, and are actually older than the ones I had on constantly.

I plan either go all flexwatt...instead of using heat pads (human heat pads) which are on a timer..as they cost alot these days...$24 each in Canada...I can buy enough flexwatt for six cages for the price of one heat pad. I do check temps of the heating pads much more often now....

I was lucky though as my snakes just stopped eating when the heat pads failed...but once I put them on a working pad, they eat fine.

It is fortunate that my room temps don't drop below 70F but with the windows open lately, it is probably cooler on the floor than higher up.
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PHLdyPayne

This would be my guess as well - undigested food gasses.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

What did that guy weigh? He looks a little small to be feeding on medium rats...especially 2 of them.

His weight as of 04/27 was a little over 900 grams-- He ate a small rat on the 27th.

He was pleanty big enough for a med. rat-- everyone's definition of a "medium" is different.
The mediums I recently gave him were on what I consider to be the small side of mediums.

When he ate the first one, unless you KNEW he ate-- you could not visibly tell he had-- there wasn't a noticable bulge, like he'd just eaten a rabbit.

I really don't like flexwatt because of the problems I've had-- but I made a recent attempt at heat cable-- which didn't work well either-- in order to get my temps inside the cage -- i was having to let the cable heat to over 110 degrees -- which was starting to warp the tubs.
I tried adding rows of cable and turning the temps down-- we've messed with every arrangement and temp of cable for about 5 months-- and just went back to the flexwatt for its 'ease of use' -- ugh-- I'll have to find something.

Thanks
Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

Scrap the Flexwatt, it clearly isn't working for you!

I (obviously) agree with the vet about what happened here, but just for everyone's information I wanted to add that when a snake cannot digest or regurge its meal in a timely fashion, it is very atypical for there to be a perforation in the gut or an "exploding stomach". The cause of death would MUCH more likely be similar to a GDV or "bloat" in a dog.. the animal's blood can no longer circulate to vital organs (including the brain). The fluid you observed is likely to have leaked out of the digestive tract once the snake had expired.

I agree there's little on earth that smells as horrid as snake vomit.. it's not a stench you soon forget!

& I'm very, very sorry for your loss.

-Tami*

I'd say too much food.....too much growth..look at the little head......rats are good but you don't need big rats (compared to snake size).....

........could have been hidden heart problems.....too much food will cause liver troubles ,but not that fast I wouldn't think..

necropsies should be done right away and not frozen......

...good luck.....

(now I read the other responces.....)......
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......

Please read my other responses.

I DID NOT FEED THE SNAKE A GIGANTIC RAT. THE HUGE MIDDLE YOU SEE IN THE SNAKE IS NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT WHAT I FED HIM.

The rats he was given-- WHEN HE FIRST ATE THEM-- did NOT leave enough of a bulge in him to tell he had eaten. unless you were me and KNEW he had eaten-- you wouldn't have been able to tell.

I looked in the tub and saw him swelled up-- the next day he was more swelled and dead.

I see A LOT of snakes through my rescue every year-- I've seen dozens of ball pythons this year alone-- I am NOT a newbie to feeding snakes.
The necropsey was done this morning (the 22nd)-- and the vet is confident that he was not over fed.

Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

I hope you don't read that I am judging your feeding size.. I fully believe that you fed your snake an appropriate sized meal in an appropriately timed fashion.

I spoke with a DVM at my practice today who also believes that it was most likely a bloat or perforation based on your observations. We both agree that the likelihood of this affecting your collection is negligable unless they were under similar temperatures, & clearly it was not prey size, but some other factor that caused his untimely demise.

She also suggested locating a state pathologist in your area.. Perhaps a state university? That way if you have a similar occurance, you have someone available who has done thousands of reptile necropsies rather than a local vet who may have only done a dozen. Also, 24 hours is long enough for any good diagnostic material to be gone. I thought all of this was worth sharing.

Thank you for checking with another source. I appriciate the effort-- much more than a lot of people in my life do.

As for the prey size-- I knew when I posted pictures of this grossly buldged snake that there would be many people jump on me and say I fed him too large of a rat-- which in going on 9 years of snake experience-- I think I know what size food a ball python needs. I think a lot of people fail to read the entire post before replying-- so when they saw a pic of a huge-bellied snake-- it was assumed that I fed it a giant rat--

The vet we use specializes in exotics-- but mainly reptiles-- has a masters in herpetology-- the whole package-- amazing person-- ultra-amazing vet. Our "back up vet" for emergency cases is just a "regular vet" (dog/cat) -- but does also see exotics--

We did take samples to send to pathology. His organs looked normal except for his stomach-- obviously. It was streched and somewhat discolored-- which is to be expected under the circumstances.
lung looked perfect-- as well as other vital organs-- heart, etc.

He showed no other signs of illness-- nor do any of the other animals here.

Everyone appears to be fine-- look good to the eye and definatly aren't swelled up like that male was.

Thanks
Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

Did your vet note any changes in the gut or take any pictures? The doctor I spoke with felt that the pooling of blood in the gut may have masked a perforation or other evidence, if the animal had sat for awhile prior to necropsy. Obviously not helpful now but it may help in future cases..

The only noted difference we saw in the gut was discoloration (grey-black) right where the rats were sitting.
When we cut the body of the snake open, it revealed a somewhat... inflated stomach. We cut the stomach and had to evacuate the room for a bit-- he deflated so to speak.

The discoloration is only around the rats-- we took samples of both the discolored area and the 'normal' area.

He hadn't been sitting long before we got home. I took the first picture late the nite before-- it has been about 15 hours between the pic and when we found him-- we don't know time of death.

I will keep you posted on how things go.

Thanks
Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

One day after feeding I had a problem with heat and it accidentally got 100 degrees in the room. All of the snakes that ate the day before had horribly bloated stomachs from the rats decomposing faster then they could digest. Luckily I caught it fairly early and nothing died, however I had 2 ball pythons regurg the nasty large bloated rats. That was a first for me. But it looks like that may have been what happened there. Just speculating of course.
Pythons.Net

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Pythons.Net

I posted above that I was using a strip of flexwatt and the bottom 2 feet or so were not 'on' but the upper part of the strip is/was working fine-- the probe for my tstat is in the middle of the rack-- where the flexwatt was working fine.

I believe it was a case of it got a little too cool and the rats were decomposing faster than digesting--

I have contacted the "big name" distributor that I got the flexwatt from-- I am sending my strip of flexwatt to them in the morning along with the necropsey report and letter from the vet, and the pictures of the snake.

Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

I'm just wondering, you say you believe your room got a little too cool. How cold is your room that you keep your animals in ? I'm sorry for your lose.
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Education is Everything.......

Honestly, I don't think the distributor is going to take any responsibility for your loss. I use heat rope, but as another poster said, you can have problems no matter what heat source you are using. No matter how "by the book" you are with the use, the distributor and the company will certainly find fault with the way you have set it up.

I wish you the best of luck in the future. As I mentioned, I use heat rope, so I can't share in your Flexiwatt issues, but I do know that I temp gun my snakes practically daily to avoid running into this sort of issue myself...and as another poster mentioned, I keep my reptile room heated.

Good luck, and I am sorry for your loss!
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Thanks,
Amy
My Boids

I don't have a 'reptile room' -- We've converted our garage to a reptile room-- its super insulated, heated, air conditioned, etc-- But we use it for the giant snakes, iguanas, turtles, torts, etc--- that room is temp controlled--

BUT, the ball pythons and smaller snakes are in my den-- I have them sitting next to my couch-- I'm not keeping my house at 80 degrees all summer.
The room stays in the low 70s-- with the flexwatt working properly the cage temps are perfect.

I mailed off the flexwatt today-- we'll see what happens.

Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

ok........
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Education is Everything.......

There are a buttload of other post and I didn't read any of them, so if this has already been stated....my bad.

It looks to me like it was trying to yack and could not do it for whatever reason. the prey mat have gotten twisted or turned or something? who knows...

Too big, too cold, too hot, too jacked with...all are factors.

sorry for your loss.