Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I found this gopher(locally) last year. I found two abberants, but this one was odd in a very different way.

I am not sure what to call it. Its pattern, whats left of it, and colors are wrong. But don't fit any morph I have seen.

The normal was on the road by my house last night, so I used it for a comparison, it is real clean with only a tiny bit of neck abberancies.

Anyway, what do you think? Enjoy

looks like a vanishing pattern you'd see in hondurans. maybe if you let it go near your house you may see some phenotypic changes in a few seasons, hahaha.

daveb

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vote in '08
chris cornell for van halen lead singer...

Oh man yer killin me!
I love the patternless lookin one. Very nice!
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Those are a trip!!
Thanks for sharing!!
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Genesis 1:1

I like it, but I don't know what to call it. One of the males I found to breed my aberrant possible sibs is similar, but to a lesser degree. I am hesitant to call it hypo though, only because it is so different from the Hypo Bulls that are already in the Hobby.

You plan on keeping that thing for breeding? (no I don't want it, just curious).

Forky
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Hi Joe, Yea, heck if I know what to call it. Its weird. hahahahahaha. I think I posted pics on the getulus forum when I caught it as a baby and another that was even weirder. The other one was hit but alive, and later died.

The week before I found the DOR weird one, I found one like it, but to a much less degree(didn't keep it and should have)

This year, I we will keep an eye out at these two locals, both close to my house. I am hanging on to it until I pair it up or something.

I am interested in the potential of that gene type. Of course, it could very well pass on much more extreme patterns.

Besides, its kinda pretty. hahahahahahahaha. Cheers

It's obviously not a hypo, and the most similar thing that comes to mine are patternless San Lucans.

What part of the world was it captured (i.e., general part of what state)?

KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net

Hypo means less black, not totally lacking black. This one is obviously lacking black, if you notice what would be blotches lack the borders of a normal. Even the tail which is normally black banded is lacking black. So amoung the characters of this animal is actual being hypo.

That being said, its not the same hypo as others I have seen or those you mention. Please consider, there is no one type of hypo. Its more then just hypo, it also has weird pattern abnormalities. Some places the base of the pattern is normal, in others its totally off. But all areas are lacking black pigment.

It was found west of Tucson. Cheers

If you use a very loose definition based on phenotypes and not true biochemical mutation based on a simple recessive mutation, then I'll agree with your words. HOWEVER, you misinterpreted mine. I avoid the lax definition of "hypo" because THAT leads people calling light normals "hypo" since they have less melanin visually than dark normals. Look at Sonorans from higher up in elevation that tend to be darker. The lower ones are often ligher (relatively speaking, and this is CERTAINLY not always true). The lower elevation ones are "hypo" by your description, but it would be misleading in herpetoculture today to use that term. People would EXPECT Mendelian inheritance and that, of course, is not generally the case.

I just meant that is NOT what is generally meant by the term "hypo" in herpetoculture to most people. Additionally, using that term would be misleading and confusing since there is already a look in Sonorans called "hypo." Why would you even want to do that - I know I would avoid it in your place. I'm sure you'd want to give this a new name, if inheritable, and NOT confuse people intentionally or unintentionally, correct? The point of naming things is onbviously to (1) describe them, (2) differentiate them, and (3) to maybe make them more marketable. I don't care about #3. Hypo would only do #1 is a weak manner - the pattern is MUCH MORE ASTOUNDING than the coloration since the color itself can be found in other localities with normal patterns. That pattern is what I have only seen in a couple of animals, and I have never seen it to THAT extreme at all. It is #2 that the term would fail on since there is already an established cultivar with that name attached to it.

I'd consider this more of a PATTERN mutation than a color mutation. Remember that pattern effects color, so it should not be surprising that the animal is lighter and brighter in coloration. The opposite, where color affects pattern, is obviously not true in the same manner.

KJ

>>Hypo means less black, not totally lacking black. This one is obviously lacking black, if you notice what would be blotches lack the borders of a normal. Even the tail which is normally black banded is lacking black. So amoung the characters of this animal is actual being hypo.
>>
>> That being said, its not the same hypo as others I have seen or those you mention. Please consider, there is no one type of hypo. Its more then just hypo, it also has weird pattern abnormalities. Some places the base of the pattern is normal, in others its totally off. But all areas are lacking black pigment.
>>
>> It was found west of Tucson. Cheers
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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net

The battle of the brutes. I want to see you guys discuss this more as I for one can see both side of this discussion. My personal thought is, the snake is definitely "hypo" by the general sense. Lack of dark pigment in Pituophis is not uncommon, do you call a really light southern pine a hypo cause it doesn't have any black? I for one would call it a patternless sonoran, witch is an awesome animal none the less, I'd buy a baby.
Nate

I see both sides as well. and I just went through the whole scenario myself a while back looking at this animal.

This animal now has a little black coming in on the neck, but for a long while there wasn't a black scale on the whole snake. I live in San Antonio, and this animal was found about 6 hours west of my home. In that location this is well within the normal variation of the population - maybe just a little on the extreme side because it was picked out many snakes. I selected this one out well over 100 snakes. The gophers/bulls I find going east towards San Antonio become increasingly pigmented with melanin, so much so that an animal like this now represents "normal" variation.

So I'm stuck right in the middle. I agree with Frank that technically it is hypo. But I also agree with KJ that because the stillwater hypos are pre-existing and quite different it probably wouldn't be best to use the hypo designation for these "hypo-ish" specimens that are just on the extreme edge of normal pattern variation.

Of course he can call them what ever he wants. So if he is dead set on the designation hypo, he might consider a designation such as hypo type B - at least that would make a distinction so that folks would be able to recognize what it is that we are talking about. That "may" the most important point to consider.

I have seen folks on the classifieds selling "hypos" that weren't even close to these or the stillwaters, just plain old normal, and that is wrong - newbies will pay inflated prices because they don't know any better.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Great looking snakes, all! Here's another light animal I like very much. She's got black borders but not a dark snake by any means, the variety is amazing even in animals from the exact same area. I like the speckleds you have Joe!

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Todd Hughes

The term hypo, refers to a givin locality for us field guys, meaning lacking normal black. Lacking all black means its an albino. So Yes, Joes lite individual is hypo as well. Even thought is has more black then mine. Really nice animal too.

But I do get the difference, one applys to captive morphs and how they relate to eachother, a set type of hypo as compared to what is accepted by keepers, not by difinition. While the other(mine) refers to the actual amount of black an individual has. Ones lacking black beyond the normal variation of a givin local are hypo.

And yes, some southern pines that are whitish and rust are indeed hypo compared to a northern pine. But not hypo(less black) they others from its own local type. Again, field herper compared to collectors of captive morphs.

You have to remember, I gained my knowledge of these terms a long time ago, when all this was new. So it surely had a different meaning then it does now. So please forgive me.

This animal I posted was captured as a hatchling and had no black then, althought it did have more pronounced markings. As it grows, it has indeed oranged up and lost pattern.

As one poster said, it may end up being one of the vanishing pattern types. As that appears to be happening.

Does anyone have a pic of what is now considered hypo for a captive morph.

I found this posted in this forum through the search function. It's a young one, and the adults that I have seen yellow up, but you can at least see that there is something odd going on ... great snakes

forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1459961,1459961
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

better link Frank, This is Brad's pair of Stillwaters

forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1491628,1491628&key=2008
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

also enters into the discussion. The two "recognized" (by keepers/breeders) forms of "hypo" bullsnake are both passed on as simple mendelian recessives.. If Frank's animal eventually shows this pattern of inheritance, I guess it would be "hypo C"....Of course it would really need to be test bred to at least the existing non-stillwater hypo bull line to demonstrate that it was a new morph.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

you know, it's not the black that's messed up in the stillwaters, it's something else.....
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Yes, it almost seems to be a "zone" thing-black is almost absent, except on the neck and forebody, where it seems to be even intensified to some degree. Very weird and quite distinctive. I don't know of a comparable morph in any other snake....
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

And I agree they are very cool!

>>Yes, it almost seems to be a "zone" thing-black is almost absent, except on the neck and forebody, where it seems to be even intensified to some degree. Very weird and quite distinctive. I don't know of a comparable morph in any other snake....
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>>Brad Chambers
>>WWW.HCU-TX.ORG
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>>The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Hi Brad, I would not call those hypos, by difinition. I get the feeling they are hypos, because of morph and not because they are lacking black.

They seem to have plenty of black and its in a common Pit form. You know, on the neck and tail. A common trait in pics, I.E. desert gophers, and Jani, etc.

Heck, Joes had far less black, which makes it more hypo. My non hypo, has less black then any of these, and its not a hypo??

I am not sure any animal has to be a captive line to be a hypo.

See I told you I was confused. Cheers

LOL-I think they were called "hypo" forwant of a better term!. If you left the head, but cut out the middle third, I think anyone would call them "hypo". You're right that they have plenty of black in the places a lot of bulls have black-but the look and intensity of that black is qualitatively different. Hard to capture in a pic.

Of course, any terms we use are just human atttempts to describe what we see in nature, IMO inherently inexact.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Wow - that's really nice. What subspecies is local in your area? Do you have any breeding plans?
-Lee

Wow! That's a smokin' Sonoran whatever its pattern is called! Very good looking snake!

reako45

I think that is a really cool pattern (or nearly patternless) on that snake! Thanks for sharing that Frank!
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Todd Hughes

Yo Frank!!!!!!

Outstanding!!!!!!! I agree with Joe--it would look better here in Texas, but at my place not his!!!!!!!LOL I just got home from spending a few days with my 1yr old Grand Baby!!!! Thanks for posting it!!!!!!

Shalom,

Pastor Pat

Tucson, NM, is more in the "affinis" range than the "sayi" range. At best, they are intergadres with morwe of an affinity (pun intended) for affinis.

I referred to the eNVy "hypo" and not the 2 lines of bullsnake hypos.
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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net

Her in AZ we have mostly affinis with a bit of deseticola in the northern part of the state. No sayi. That one is pure Sonoran, and a beautiful one it is!
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Diego

See how confused I was by people talking about bullsnakes? LOL.

Geez, I was thinking "did it come from New Mexico - and that's why they think sayi?" ....then I re-read the post, saw Tucson, changed my original post without removing the intergrade crap (still thinking NM for some reason)....leaving a post that just sounds stupid.....lol. That's pretty funny. Classic "Post of the Week" material.

You know how use "easterners" are, though - all you desert states are the same. Still, it ain't a bullsnake if from Tucson, AZ. It isn't what is generally meant by "hypo" no matter where it is from.

KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net

Don't sweat it. I make some pretty dumb posts every now and then. Especially after a couple of brews...
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Diego

Cannot find their rear with both hands.

First, Sayi starts mid texas, west texas is affinis.

second, locally in ARIZONA, they are refered to as bull snakes or gophersnakes, BOTH COMMON NAMES ARE USED. As a common name is a local specific name, IT HAS TO BE CORRECT. Oh, somehow Blow snake is sometimes used.

And it is a hypo, by lacking nearly all normal black. That is the difinition of that name. Lacking all black is an albino. Having normal black is NORMAL. Having to much black is Hyper Mel, or ugly, depends on your interpitation. hahahahahahahahahaha

That YOU pick what you want to call what, is ONLY about you. I and others are not restricted to that. I will call ones with less black, hypos if i want. Particularly when the hypos posted here have more black. Cheers

>>Cannot find their rear with both hands.

Wanna swap insults now? That could be fun, too.

>> First, Sayi starts mid texas, west texas is affinis.

That's only in the Bend area of west Texas. North of that (which is still called west Texas by everyone except herpers - I never understood why) has pure sayi. The Pecos region in the Bend area is the currently accepted intergrade zone.

>> second, locally in ARIZONA, they are refered to as bull snakes or gophersnakes, BOTH COMMON NAMES ARE USED. As a common name is a local specific name, IT HAS TO BE CORRECT. Oh, somehow Blow snake is sometimes used.

"Arizona bullsnake" seems to be an older name that "Sonoran gophersnake in the original publications. I'd have to check my records for the common name assigned to the type specimen, but I don't think it really matters. Nobody was saying you were WRONG for using that common name. Was it confusing? Yeah, but not wrong. What I said was people were discussing it as if it were a sayi (i.e., the Colorado hypo and the Stillwater hypo) - and not affinis (eNVy Hypo). Call it bullsnake, blowsnake, or a 2-headed Boiga Boiga - it is still affinis and the Stillwater hypo is still a sayi. That isn't really even debatable. Who cares what common name you use as long as you are clear on which subspecies you mean - and some people were apparently confused.
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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net

Edwards plateau too.

And isn't an insult when someone pretends to be an expert, And/or calls Tucson in NM!!

Consider, I am not an expert on pits, but I have collected them throughout much of their range, coast to coast and north to south. Oh except the northeast. I cannot stand mass quantities of people. Oh and lots of mexico too.

But like I said, I am mainly familiar with them in the field. Great great snakes too.

over the last forty years i have kept and bred a number of different species and morphs, but they were only a casual interest.

I can show lots and lots of different local types here in Southern Ariz. I am in the field lots. See pits most days, one got in my mouse room yesterday and ate a mouse. Should they be called mouse snakes?

So what happened to the bull/gopher/blow/pine snake controversy? oh by the way, gophersnakes were only coastal(west) when I was a kid. Everything else was a bullsnake, until they all of a sudden became pine snakes in the east(whereever that is)

Wait a minute, I lived in the east too, and dang it I forgot, I stayed and worked in the Hamptons. Nice box turtles. (humor sir)Cheers

very cool. I wonder if there is something more to it like a super.

Hi Colby, hows it going, I see our doing well with that white one. Are you still in Az.?

That gopher/bull, hahahahaha is weird, I have no idea what to call it, because I have never seen that type of abberancy. I was just out there in the herp room with a friend. I have two normals in with. Its hypo, there is no black, except its eyes. But as all have said, its more then simple hypo, it has a very odd pattern and its odd in ways different from normal.

I see lots of striper abberancies, You know, the black running together, or the tan running together, etc. This animals does not have that.

About half its body blotches are normal shaped, but lack black borders and difinition. That is they are faded shadows of where blotches should be. In other areas, these faded shadows blend together. Also the side markings are not anything like normal. On the side of the neck, its a zigzag pattern.

So yea, its a weirdo. The night before we found this one, we found a even better one, only it just got hit. I have pics somewhere of that one. Cheers

Yeah I'm still here. We plan on moving as soon as Rebecca finishes school.

That hypo is the lightest I've seen. It will be neat to see what the offspring look like. It wouldn't surprise me if something more unusual comes out of that.

Take care,
Colby