Reptile & Amphibian Forums

First off, I apologize for not having a photograph. Hoping you all can help anyway.

I recently spoke to my brother, who lives in Boynton Beach, Fl. His backyard abuts an undisturbed area of overgrowth, and snakes are a frequent find in his backyard. 90% of them are non-venomous (racers, etc) however, once in a great while, he will find a dead coral snake in the skimmer of his pool (maybe once a year, and yes, he knows the difference between a coral and a kingsnake).

Recently, his Jack Russell terrier left a very nice present for him on the back patio. He said it was by far the largest coral snake (albeit a dead one) he's ever seen or heard of. 2-3 times the length and width as the few he's seen and/or read about. Fortunately, the dog wasn't bitten (lucky girl since the week before, 2 dogs and a boy were all bit and antivenin supply was a problem)....

Anyhow, I was wondering if it could have been something other than a coral snake, like perhaps a milk snake? Especially considering the size he reported to me, I've never heard of a coral that big.

Any opinions would be fantastic, thanks!!

could have been a milksnake. do you know the actual length of the snake or the order of the bands?
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Well,..to be quite honest, without a photo it really COULD be almost anything, including an escaped subspecies of milksnake, of which there are 25,...26 iincluding "temopalis".

The record documented length for an Eastern Coral Snake(Micrurus fulvius fulvius) which is the ssp. indigenous to the area inquestion, is 47.4 inches, which is probably MUCH larger than most people are aware of them growing to. If it had a blunt, rounded BLACK head,....and had wide RBR(red body rings) approximating the width of the black rings, and had red rings touching yellow,.....then yes, it was an Eastern Coral Snake. Otherwise, without a picture, it is virtually impossible to say. I have owned and bred many hundreds of different types of milksnake, so I would definitely be able to identify it if there were a photo.

From what you stated earlier, you said your friend knew the difference between the two, but I'm not too sure I'm absolutely convinced of that. But in any case, here is a couple pics so you can see the anatomical difference in the two, as well as the sequence of ring coloration between the two.

The only snake in the area that resembles a Coral Snake are the Scarlet Kingsnake, actually a subspecies of milksnake, and the Scarlet Snake(Cemophora coccinea) that VERY closely resembles the small Scarlet King in pattern and coloration, as well as the color sequence, but are of a totally different unrelated genus.

Here are some pics of each.

best regards, ~Doug

Scarlet Kingsnake

another Scarlet King

Eastern Coral Snake on patio

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

sorry for the ridiculous "typo" on my other post,..I meant to type "temporalis" in the beginning of the post.

Here is an example of the Florida Scarlet Snake(coccinea) that is also native to the central Florida area as well.

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I just got off the phone w/ my brother, and asked him a few questions....

He said has always gone by the saying: Red on black, friend of Jack, red on yellow, kill a fellow". He also looks for the black snout.

I don't know how accurate the saying is or its more of an old wives tale.

He is positive it had a black snout and the yellow and red were touching. That's all the info I can give you. Sorry I don't have a photo. I told him if that ever happens again, to take a pic and send to me so I can post here for you pro's to help.

If it was over 30" then it was most likely a coral snake.
Neither the scarlet king nor scarlet snake attain the length of a really big coral.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

And also the color rhyme you described is absolutely correct, it is true, and not a wivestale,...one thing I see often though is that people forget the proper order of the rhyme!..LOL!

Yes, from your description of what he relayed to you, it was DEFINITELY an Eastern Coral Snake. Some non-indigenous milksnakes have a black snout as well, but the color sequence still applies "red bordered by black, venom lack"

Here's a pic of just a few of MANY that I've owned that is native to western Mexico and Central America that would easily be misidentified by many folks, but make no mistake, from your description, what your friend saw was indeed a Coral Snake!

best regards, Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Wow, I can't believe that not only didn't he take a photo since even he said he never thought corals could attain that size, but that his dog killed the snake without injury.

I told him from now on to document the reptiles he finds in his backyard with a camera.

Thank you for your expertise. I really thought it must have been another species from the size.

And I will never walk barefoot in his backyard again

He said has always gone by the saying: Red on black, friend of Jack, red on yellow, kill a fellow". He also looks for the black snout.

I heard a very wise herpetologist (probably one of the foremost experts on Southeastern Herps) tell a crowd of people that if you are using that old adage to help tell venomous from non-venomous snakes, you shouldn't be messing with snakes at all! I don't think he intended to sound condescending (nor do I), but he was just pointing out that this old rhyme worked in such absurdly limited occasions that it was almost useless.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

So is the saying inaccurate as far as coral snakes in the US is concerned?

Well, the saying is very accurate for Coral Snake's indigenous to the U.S.,..providing the sequence is remembered correctly, and the Coral Snake isn't aberrantly patterned which on rare occasions can sometimes happen.

I think what Chris meant in regards to his statement, is that if you really don't have enough experience to look at one in an instant and tell the difference between a Coral, and a milksnake, or Scarlet, etc..., you really shouldn't mess with any of them,....especially if the rhyme gets "botched" for whatever reason in the excitement, which I can see sometimes happening,....I've also heard people recite it incorrectly on occasion myself. I basically agree with that as well.

However, the so-called "rhyme" does NOT apply for many of the Latin/South American Coral Snake species, such as the one pictured below.

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Hate when that happens!

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

scarlet snake, coral snake, and scarlet king snake

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Another very common florida snake to consider is the Florida Banded Watersnake.

People frequently find these snakes, see that the are mostly dark and red and white/yellow and then do the old boy scout rhyme and pronounce them corals.

Here's a photo from the web -

The amount of red really varies, however, so you can't judge by just one photo.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

Did he say exactly how big it was? I live in Boynton too and corals are very common, especially west of 95. Most of the ones I've seen have been 20" to 30", but I did almost step on a monster female one night while taking out the garbage. She was probably 36" and 40". I ended up relocating her to a cane field away from roads and homes.

He reports that it was alittle over 3 ft in his estimation, but what got him was the girth, not the length. He said it was at least twice as "thick" as any coral he'd ever seen before.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention, he is west of 95, the community is Nautica Sound.