Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I often wonder if there is a set use of calicum, or is there more to it.

In most cases, folks talk about UV bulbs and calicum suppliments in a context of a mere static captive. That is, a display animal or pet.

What I mean by that is, static types of animals sort of exsist, but do not grow much or reproduce much. I would think this type of animal has the very lowest need for placed calicum.

On the otherhand, growing, or better yet, quickly growing neonates, logically have the greatest need for Placed calicum, as they are increasing their structure(skeleton) as fast as four or five times the mass a month OR MORE.

Individuals in heavy reproduction, do have a greater need for calicum then a static individual, but not nearly the same as a growing young individual.

In the pics, the little pond turtle is a few days old, the other is a month older and from a first clutch, the little one a second clutch. Another clutch to come in a month.

The albigs are from the same season of clutches as well. The larger one is about two months older then the smaller one.

Looking at these pics should cause anyone to realize how much the skeleton is increasing in a very short time.

While these two examples appear to be fast growers, they are average for here. Actually the larger turtle was a little weak as a hatchling and took a little time to get going, the little one, was kicking tooth and claw, right out of the egg and you can already see growth marks.

By the way, all these and their parents were raised with incandesent bulbs(household) and no suppliments, indoors.

So any other opinions on calicum need and use? thanks and enjoy.

great post, as usual. what diet did you feed the albigs? was it pure rodents from day one or did you start on inverts then move up to rodents?

what diet did you feed the albigs? was it pure rodents from day one or did you start on inverts then move up to rodents?

Beautiful Albigs! I was wondering if you think it's better to feed rodents, or birds? I'm feeding my six month old albig, mice, but my older (close to a year?)get's mostly chicks and quail and only rarely rodents. The older albig's growth in the two and half months I've had him, has been aprox 12", which I find shocking, everytime I catch him basking I do a double-take.

BTW I've never used calcium supliments with my monitors, as I didn't think they required it, due to the whole prey items.

Thanks,
Susan.

I fed them mice, mainly because thats what I produce here. I also live out where there are plenty of DOR snakes, and I have nothing against feeding DORS once in a while.

Its been my experience that rodents had better results then birds, but your results are very very good, so I would keep on doing what your doing.

With monitors, whole food items seems to make a huge difference, after that, exactly what kind of whole prey item becomes less important.

Post some pics of your albigs. Cheers

he's 7 months old and approaching 3 feet. i really like his coloring and he's not shy but doesn't exactly approve of handling yet either. as long as i leave him be, he doesn't bother me when i do my cage cleaning.

I tried posting the pictures with no success, so I'm trying this, (link below) Hope I'm not breaking any rules.
He was sold to me as a "2ft juvie" in March (was actually 28inches) Since I got him, he's fed daily, primarily chicks and some quail- without supplements.
As of May 20th, he's 39" and eating more than twice as much as in March. What surprises me most, is the increase in his body/legs/feet size, in such a short time. I suppose when you breed and grow lots of them, you come to expect such growth, but this being my first "healthy" monitor, (also have a 6mo BT, bought as a hatchling, which was shipped to me, very skinny, dehydrated,lethargic, poor appetite etc' has been a challenge from day one) it's very rewarding to see this older one, doing well.

Susan.

repticzone.com/forums/Monitors/messages/1738971.html

You are correct about the supplement. They are not needed if all these minerals and vitamins are present in the food like whole rodents and birds. I have heard turtle experts who has kept their turtles without the use of UVB light, but they are fed commerical food like Reptomin and Mazuri which has plenty of calcium and other vitamins, and the turtle grows really well with smooth shell and are reproducing like crazy. However I think one thing you left out is small lizards and amphibians that eat mainly inverterbrates. They don't have much calcium in them, so the supplement is needed not only for the animals that eat them, but also for the prey items. And then you have the herbiorous animals which need some form calcium supplement,too, because plants don't have much calcium either.

on the contrary, dark leafy greens have plenty of calcium. but i do supplement my rhino iguana's greens 2 or 3 times a week.

When I had my Cyclura group, they were on an exclusive Mazuri Tortoise food diet. Aside from them catching the Anoles and Skinks around their pens, thats all they were fed and they did exceptionally well, with no supplements.

I first bred Cyclura cornuta in 1974 without any supplemental anything. I did give the females when they were gravid chopped chicken necks about once per week. With this regime of maintenance and outdoor enclosures I bred 4 species of Cyclura and not once but for years. Kept under much the same conditions I bred V. bengalensis, V. flavescens, and V. salvator. Of course their diet consisted of various kinds of whole prey including roadkill mammels, birds, and reptiles. Remember there were NO u.v. bulbs for babies and in fact if one knows his charges they don't really need it. Its interesting how now people have access to knowlege and equiptment but most understand little about the animal itself. I remember spending lots of time watching and learning and as soon as I could afford it I studied them in nature. Today we are missing the watching and learning part at least for some. ONE HUGE MYTH IS THAT FEEDING WILD FROGS, LIZARDS, OR OTHER ANIMALS WILL KILL THEM DUE TO PARASITES. I raised Vine Boas [E. gracilis] to f-5 generations only feeding wild anoles. Oh well I'll get off my soapbox and become a lurker once more....TC

ok...i don't understand where this "you don't understand your animals" thing came from when all i argued was the statement that greens have next to zero calcium...

don't get me wrong, that's great that you had that kind of success. i hope to be able to do that with my cyclura and possibly some different species of varanids.

I bred prehensile tailed skinks for 14 yrs. I recieved a baby and sometimes twins, every year. Yet, I raised the babies and fed the adults only mulberry leaves. Its a dark green and it met all their needs for a very long time.

Again, if mulberry leaves did not contain all those lizards needed, they would died. But again, being ignorant of whats in these leaves and not using suppliments, I avoided any problems.

I think there are some points to be looked at, most people are busy preventing something that may never happen. Us old guys most likely got over that a long time ago, we also learned to fix something thats broken and if its not broken don't fix it. And that goes directly to varanids or any reptiles.

I admit, why folks feel the need to use all manner of products is beyond my ability to understand. If I have a NEED for a product, I WILL use it. If not, why use it.

The truth is, if you have even the most basic of husbandry skills, these animals don't fall over dead, with decent husbandry, you have plenty of time to fix problems. But then, thats just my opinion. My experience is, for the most part, do not have a need for most of them. As Tom could tell you, we did fine before these products were available.

With calicum and vitamin suppliments, I have not seen any harm in using them. So if it makes you feel good, go for it. Which is my same opinion of UV bulbs. They are about the person, not the animals. But to say, the animals need it, is another story altogether.

My disagreement is, people base there approach on something like what you said, greens do not contain calicum. So you base your thoughts on that statement, yet I base my opinions on results. If the animal does well on greens, then greens contain all thats needed to DO WELL. See what i mean. To do well in my opinion is to achieve generations. Generations is what those that think they have to add this and that, are trying to achieve.

So, if an animals goes through generations on something that someone says does not contain a needed thing, why would I care what that person said. The animal said otherwise. truthfully, I do listen to people, but I believe the animals. Cheers

First the comment WASN'T directed toward you or anyone in particular. I'm stating that many folks keeping herps can't see the forest because all the trees are in the way. For instance FR was trying to demonstrate using visual herps that the need for calcium is far greater with a fast growing neonate than a gravid female. That is 100% factual. Rhino Iguanas used to be fairly common in the Artiboniti area in Haiti. I've studied and collected them there. The area resembles the Sonoran Desert. It is a xeric harsh enviroment yet these lizards have thrived there for millions of years without supplements and relatively poor foraging plants to eat. The bottom line is if you rear an animal under proper enviromental conditions that fill its needs you need to do little else to breed them. Therein is where the problem lies. The key is in making your charges feel like their at home. There is NO set way to do this as this varies according to the species. The key is YOU the keeper recognising these needs and providing them as needed. Therein lies another problem and that is NOT knowing enough about the lizard to be able to adequately provide these needs. Many folks today buy herps and if you asked them they probably couldn't even tell you their natural range much less the bioniche they live in. In fact with some buyers they don't even know the continent the herp is from. Many years ago there were not many of us crazy herpers but one thing we all shared was a desire to learn in any way possible about herps we hoped to aquire. Thats right I said we learned as much as we could BEFORE a purchase or trip was made. Thats right also, I said a trip was made. I and many like me actually traveled to exotic lands to see and learn about these critters. This reason alone is why some of us are very sucessfull long term and some are not. Its all about understanding the herp. I can simply look at almost any kind of herp and tell if its c.b. or w.c. I can tell if its old or young regardless of the size. If an animal isn't feeling good I can tell by its body language and take appropriate measures. I can do this because I understand the animal and know what to expect in normal behaviours and resting positions. If I'm confusing anyone I apologize and I'm certainly not criticizing anyone. In fact I don't even know who the person is I'm responding to. My suggestion is understanding the herp and learning as much as you can BEFORE buying a Crocodile Monitor on a whim because its pretty and you saw one on Animal Planet. I've been in this industry for 40 years and have traveled around the world several times but you know I learn new stuff every day. The more I learn the less I realize I know. I want to apologize for the long post and again I'm not criticizing anyone. thanks....TC

That was a wonderful rant and so true, I think the real difference is, we looked at the animal, at the habitat, at the animal IN ITS HABITAT, and followed basic reptile knowledge from years and years of keeping.

Yet, what is common now is, anybody got a caresheet for a Storrs monitor. As if thats different then an ackie or even a nile or Sav.

The smart ones, or the ones that think they are smart, may read a paper on a species, then think they know all about that species. Yet the person writing the paper, knew nothing and did nothing with the species. At least not about anything important to the actual keeping of that species. I have to question how smart that is, when the information we are seeking is about keeping them successfully in captivity.

The truth is, that information is the same, it all depends what your actually looking for. Most papers are on population dynamics and spacial dynamics. But fail to look at reproductive biology and related behaviors. As keepers, I only need the first(pd/pd) to find the second(RB). Its the second thats important. Then again, its the second that predicts the first. Got to go to work. Cheers

alright, sorry about the mix up. and thank you for the great post. what you described is basically what i strive to do, except i don't have the means to actually travel to africa, haiti, the amazon, etc etc. so what i try and do is look up the location and range the animals is from and get an idea of it's natural habitat. i know that's not nearly as effective as actually traveling there and experiencing the native habitat in person.

also i do pay attention to what my animal is trying to tell me. whether it's through body language, physical appearance, behavior, etc etc.

Yeah, but due to soil depletion, the greens don't have what they usually have. That's why I try to buy organic.

I do have dozens of examples of insect feeders and plant feeders, but that is not what I am asking or talking about.

I am afraid, most of you simply refuse to try and learn, all you want to do is jump the gun. You do not want to start at the begining and SLOWLY work from there. Learning starts at the bottom and works up.

This thread is more about starting at the begining and the begining of this subject, the how, where, and the most important part, then WHEN calicum is needed. The when is what I am looking at on this post.

This POST is ABOUT, those two species, not any other. Its showing how much they grew in a very short time. I picked those two because the little turtle just hatched and when I put it in with its brother, it was so tiny sitting next to it. I thought, what a nice picture of growth. I then add the albigs, because this is a monitor forum and I had the exact same type of pic.

With the albigs, it shows an extreme difference in size. And they are only a few months of age different. In this case, the larger albig may more then 500 times the mass of the recent hatchling sitting next to it. IF you would stop and use your brain, you SHOULD realize that the larger albig increased its entire skeleton somewhere in the area of that 500 times. THE ENTIRE SKELETON. As in, the jaw bone of the larger individual has more calicum then the entire hatchling. It got that calicum from somewhere.

As far as I know, there is no greater demand for the successful placement of calicum then when your doubling, tripling, up to 500 times or more, it may be way more, the mass of your skeleton. Is there any agruement here? does anyone have better examples of calicum placement? anyone? vets? keepers? phd's? anyone?? I am not telling, I am asking.

I did mention, that most think of calicum needs with gravid females, compared to this type of growth, the needs of a gravid female is very small compare to these examples, to shell the eggs is nothing compare to this type of skeleton growth. Yes, reproduction has an increased need for placed calicum over a static individual.

Sadly, 99% of cases of Calicum Deficency are with static non growing, non reproductive individuals. Which means, that the symtoms and remedies, are for individuals that have a very low calicum placement requirement. Why would individuals that have the lowest need for placed calicum, have the most problems?? This is the wonder of this disease.

This to me BRINGS UP A VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION, why are these non growing, non reproducing, animals getting rubber jawed, swollen limbs, and broken soft bones???? when they have very little need in the first place?????

Sorry for repeating the question, but I guess I was not very clear in the first place.

Again, I am asking this question. I am not giving an opinion or any manner of answer(yet, hahahaha). So please stick to the subject. What is the answer to this question?

While I do have ideas why those static individuals seem to express MBD more often then any other segment. I really do not know.

I do know, and have expressed that successful fast growing animals such as those pictured, do not seem to have those problems, in spite of "not" using the remedies that are RECOMENDED for the prevention of this desease. In fact, these animals were raised in conditions that are suppose to cause this disease.

So please address THIS subject and do not jump to whatever burr you have in your saddle. Once we understand this, maybe we can move on and eventually get to your burr.

So, do you have any ideas why these animals PICTURED, do not and did not suffer from calicum problems???????????

Again the prevailing conditions, no UV bulbs, no sunlite, no suppliments, and a very narrow diet. Are these not what causes MBD, so why do they not get this disease? Cheers

Has more than enough calcium and needed vitamins for all growth.
The prey animal has calcium in its bones, calcium in its blood, in certain organs, all of which comes in its easiest to use and digest/absorb form.
Heres the difference between 2 female albigs 21 months apart, one is a few weeks old, one is 21 months old. The hatchling was around 14 inches, the adult was just under 6ft long.

The same hatchling, 3 months and 3 weeks later.

The larger albig at 2.5 months old.

This looks like an interesting thread, unfortunately I don’t have time to read it entirely, pleas forgive me if I get a little out of context in my opinion.

First Frank iv learned from you about support and options, for this I am grateful. (thank you)

This being said, I have failed many-many consecutive years because I did not understand about proper support.

I use to keep groups of animals in hope that a few will breed, not having a clue about why one pair out of many succeeded.

I feel I really got a grip on my husbandry from our conversation on breeding crickets, in fact its only after I set-up a breeding colony and failed many times that I started to get the picture (the importance of proper support)

With proper support of prey theirs no need for supplements.
Also from you I learned to adjust my husbandry with the support I am providing at the time (different task- different support)
This balance of husbandry and supply is the key for good metabolisation.

Also I don’t agree with paradon, rodents and insects feeding on greens like grass-dandelions, trifle, leafs have gut loads of minerals, far superior to what there skeletons – exoskeletons can provide. These greens are the worlds riches foods in calcium’s and vitamins.

Squeeze the gut content out of your prey and get it analyzed if you dough my saying.

I read the whole thread about the calcium/vitamin supplies, very interesting. To be honest I usually am very wary about getting vitamin supplements and calcium for herps in specific. In Europe the controls on the contents of these products is close to zero, so every idiot can sell supplements! If i use calcium I use the version that is sold for dogs (Gistocal). And for vitamins I usually get Zoomed or Trex products (US made I hope is better watched).

The reason why static animals get MBD is because they do not move much (no fysicle activity). I think hormone levels are very important as well to the whole condition of the animal. If they do not get the chance of moving about, because the enviroment is to small, or is not even close to their natural habitat, this may cause them to feel "bad or sad". If they are not stimulated properly their condition will become bad, and their internal system will not absorb the right food, due also to the wrong hormones in the animals body.
Look at humans! If you feel bad you are more at risk to get sick! If you are stressed, different hormones are released into the body, if you are happy the "happy"hormones are made.
If you do not move enough (after a period of years!) your bones become weaker.

And what most herpers do nowadays is to stuff their animals full with all the calcium and vitamins they can get! They think it can't harm the animals! Well an overdose of vitamins can definatly KILL, it will overload the organs with the result of kidney failure or liver problems! Calcium is disregarded by the body if there is not enough vitamins or not the correct vitamins. We all know they need D3 to absorb calcium. And a overdose of UV can also harm! What most people don't realise is the if you take a sunbath (to get a nice tann in a manmade machine!) you can not sit longer then maximum of 12 minutes a week! If you sit longer then that I will exponetionally give you greater risk of getting skin cancer! (ok I know reptiles are not humans!) But why do we let a UV bulb burn for eg 4 hours a day, or 1 hour a day at a small distance from the animal!?

So I think static animals become sick because of the following circumstances:

Inproper habitat
No stimulation other then to eat food (no hunting)
Overfeeding
Stress (by constand handling of the animal)
Overflowing the animal with human made "canned" food
Or giving the inproper food (dog or cat food as a staple diet)
Lack of knowledge of its keeper/handler!
Inproper care!

Sorry for the long text. This is my view, and I am not saying I know it all, but I would love to hear other opinions about this.
And sorry for maybe insulting people, my apologize for this!