Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi everyone,
I'm new to beardies & this forum, but have been on KS for several years. I just acquired 2 beardies, about a year old. It was suggested to the previous owner that bird seed would work well as a substrate as it's digestible if swallowed. Any thoughts on this?
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Robins Critters
1.0 Hog Island Boas Harley
0.1 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snake Jasmine
0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa Kenya
1.0 Tricolor Hognose Yoshi
0.2 Leopard Geckos Tang & Roxy
1.2 Crested Geckos Fox Mulder, Zoe & Peek
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink Indigo
1.1 Bearded Dragons Jarvis & not-yet-named
1.1 Eastern Box Turtles Squirtle & Yurtle
1.1 Pacman Frogs CamoFrog & Buffy the Cricket Slayer
1.0 Southern Toad L.T.-Little Toad
0.2 Tiger Salamanders Tiger & Sally
1.1 Mossy Frogs Kermit & Kate Mossy
1.1 Firebelly Newts Wayne Newton & Thandie Newton
1.1 Cats Gus & Mena

The only problem with bird seed that I've heard of is mold. I've heard of it being used for Uro's but never knew anyone that used it for Beardies.

Maybe you could consider sand. With the right husbandry sand is completely safe, attractive, and easy to clean. I use play sand for all my dragons.

I was going to use sand, but I'm concerned about the weight. The book I have says they should have 3-4 inches for burrowing, but that's a LOT of weight. I'll be moving them, eventually, to my cabinet cage, where they'll have a level in a multi-level enclosure.
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Robins Critters
1.0 Hog Island Boa Harley
0.1 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snake Jasmine
0.1 Kenyan Sand Boa Kenya
1.0 Tricolor Hognose Yoshi
0.2 Leopard Geckos Tang & Roxy
1.2 Crested Geckos Fox Mulder, Zoe & Peek
1.0 Blue Tongue Skink Indigo
1.1 Bearded Dragons Jarvis & not-yet-named
1.1 Eastern Box Turtles Squirtle & Yurtle
1.1 Pacman Frogs CamoFrog & Buffy the Cricket Slayer
1.0 Southern Toad L.T.-Little Toad
0.2 Tiger Salamanders Tiger & Sally
1.1 Mossy Frogs Kermit & Kate Mossy
1.1 Firebelly Newts Wayne Newton & Thandie Newton
1.1 Cats Gus & Mena

bird seed is actually lighter than sand. i dont use it for my beardie but i do use it for my uros. i have my uros in a boaphile that is about 5 feet by 3 feet and me and my girlfriend can move it with no problem. i wouldnt use it for the beardies because it causes the ground to be very unstable for there little feet.
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Jeff Kearney
Orlando, FL

1.0.0 Egyptian Uromastyx (Dino)
2.7.0 Bearded Dragons (Too many to name)
1.0.0 Mali Uromastyx (Rex)
2.2.0 Ball Python (Ali, Gator, Para, Medic)
0.1.1 Leopard Gecko (Layla, Nubbs, Iggy)
0.2.0 Fat-Tailed Gecko (Penelope, Brownie)
0.0.1 Corn Snake (Not sure yet)
0.0.2 Blue Phase Dumpys Tree Frog (Sticky, Squishy)

i wouldnt use it for the beardies because it causes the ground to be very unstable for there little feet.

Please explain why it is unstable for BD's but not for Uros? I am sincerely confused.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES

uros are heavier and pack the seeds in as where the beardies are light so the ground stays real loose for them.
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Jeff Kearney
Orlando, FL

1.0.0 Egyptian Uromastyx (Dino)
2.7.0 Bearded Dragons (Too many to name)
1.0.0 Mali Uromastyx (Rex)
2.2.0 Ball Python (Ali, Gator, Para, Medic)
0.1.1 Leopard Gecko (Layla, Nubbs, Iggy)
0.2.0 Fat-Tailed Gecko (Penelope, Brownie)
0.0.1 Corn Snake (Not sure yet)
0.0.2 Blue Phase Dumpys Tree Frog (Sticky, Squishy)

>>uros are heavier and pack the seeds in as where the beardies are light so the ground stays real loose for them.

A large Uromastyx ornata is what 400 grams? I have 600 gram dragons. Doesn't make sense.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES

bearded dragons don't come from deserts where there is a lot of deep shifting sands...they are semi-arid, more from packed sand/forested areas, where the ground is mostly hard packed with some loose sand here and there.

Uromastyx come from desert areas with deep sand with rocky outcroppings...(various a bit between subspecies), thus their bodies are better designed to move through soft shifting sands...

I wouldn't use birdseed with either animal to be honest. Birdseed can mold very easy if it stays damp, not to mention harbor germs etc when the soak up fecal matter, thus can stink easily. Damp areas such as around the water bowl, if one is used, will cause mold and rot which can be bad for either to breathe. Not to mention dust as the seeds break down from being trodden on.

Uros don't eat birdseed either, so its not a healthy part of their diet.

I don't understand why people want to use everything under the sun as a substrate when there are already several safe substrates to use which are cheap. Children's washed play sand is fine as a substrate, or papertowels, newsprint, non stick shelf liners, plastic table cloth, ceramic tiles. Some people create a 'sandbox' section, so dragons can dig and burrow if they so feel inclined yet not have sand for the entire cage.
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PHLdyPayne

just back off its my opinion. go with what PHLdyPayne said. stop trying to start stuff on a freakin online forum.
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Jeff Kearney
Orlando, FL

1.0.0 Egyptian Uromastyx (Dino)
2.7.0 Bearded Dragons (Too many to name)
1.0.0 Mali Uromastyx (Rex)
2.2.0 Ball Python (Ali, Gator, Para, Medic)
0.1.1 Leopard Gecko (Layla, Nubbs, Iggy)
0.2.0 Fat-Tailed Gecko (Penelope, Brownie)
0.0.1 Corn Snake (Not sure yet)
0.0.2 Blue Phase Dumpys Tree Frog (Sticky, Squishy)

>>just back off its my opinion. go with what PHLdyPayne said. stop trying to start stuff on a freakin online forum.
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>>Jeff Kearney
>>Orlando, FL

Wow!

I was sincerely trying to understand the perspective you brought up. I truly meant nothing more. I am sad I touched a nerve.

Bearded Dragon bedding is always a point of discussion so I am always trying to learn all the perspectives out there. That is all.

Have a nice weekend.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES

I also use sifted playsand..What I tell people if they are worried about impaction wet sand in tank and let dry for several days..You will have a hard surface and all trash can be picked up off the top..Keep dragon off sand until completely dry. We do not want to risk a Resp.infection.. I beleive if we use common sense and set up our reptiles like they are in nature (and not set up their cages so it is easy for us) they have a much better rate of survival. Also it does not hurt for you to read up on the area in which you reptile lives so you can better understand their surroundings and seasons..This also affects your reptiles life..Good luck

but Beardeds don't live on playsand, or in sand dunes, in nature. not on birdseed either. not on tile, or shelf liner. not on polished crystal marbles from the Temple of Ayundaar.

they live on soil.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

>>but Beardeds don't live on playsand, or in sand dunes, in nature. not on birdseed either. not on tile, or shelf liner. not on polished crystal marbles from the Temple of Ayundaar.
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>>they live on soil.
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>>robyn@proexotics.com
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>>Pro Exotics Reptiles

well they dont live in cages in the wild either, they dont eat the same stuff in the wild as they do in captivity either.
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Judson
Beach Beardies

0.1. bearded dragon
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

but to suggest keeping them on playsand, cause that is similar to what they have in the wild is wildly inaccurate.

yes, we keep them in cages, it is captivity. so what is the best substrate? some dry, desiccating, bone dry substrate? or a soil similar to one they have used for millions of years?
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

in the wild the survive on soil and sand. they also climb tree limbs but most books you will read on BDs say they are not climbers, but yet in the wild you will see some in trees. peoples opinions will differ forever.
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Judson
Beach Beardies

0.1. bearded dragon
1.1. Sugar Gliders
0.2. Felines *queen athena and missy*

Yes, in the wild they are on hard packed soil, clay etc...but it isn't easy to keep them on such in captivity... soil is harder to keep bacteria free unless the cage is designed to be a bio-active vivarium. This sort of environment is not for the beginner..but more advanced herp keeper.

Washed children's playsand is the better choice compared to other particulate style beddings...such as calcium sands (bad), crushed walnut (really bad), wood shavings/products (really bad too), corn cob (very bad), or other such things.

In captivity what we want to look for is the safest substrate which is easy to clean, affordable, appealing and most importantly, comfortable for the bearded dragon (or other reptile). We also have to keep in mind most people asking questions tend to be fairly new to the hobby, or trying to learn better ways or alternative ways to keep their reptiles.

3" of sand lining a 4'x2' cage is alot of weight...definitely not something to set up on a glass tank with no support for the bottom, else you may find a pile of sand underneath the tank. One reason I choose not to go with sand...it was dealing with the weight of it. 50 pound bags of children's play sand to carry up the stairs several times a year..then down again to throw out the waste sand...just didn't appeal to me at all. Not to mention dealing with sand kicked out of the cage, cleaning it out of the cage, worrying about how much the dragon eats with dinner, or while tongue testing everything...getting to poop before it is buried...seemed to be far too much work when in my view, it doesn't give any benefit at all. I don't find it aesthetically pleasing to look at...nor the sight of dragons looking like they are floundering in sand..as their feet are not designed for soft sand that is several inches deep.
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PHLdyPayne

a good soil doesn't have to be set up as bio active at all. in our soil setups, we use a good soil, or soil mix, then dump it in the cage. we spot clean as necessary, add water as necessary, and that is it.

we have cages go for a year, two years, or four years without a changeout of the soil. the more soil you offer, the longer it will last. the point is, maintenance, aside from spot cleaning, is about zero.

i suppose it is a more "advanced" substrate than playsand, paper, seed, or tile, but keeping reptiles successfully is a challenge, and i refuse to believe that keepers aren't sophisticated enough to understand the basics like appropriate and usable temps, or good substrates.

there are PLENTY of folks, forums, and stores out there looking to dumb it all down. i would rather dumb it all up : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

It should have dawned on me much faster who you were Robyn...just shows I don't pay much attention to screen names...but I do remember reading the articles on your webpage about using soil for monitors... The soil for bearded dragon cages will have to be pretty dry, as they do not tolerate high humidity well...though it can be around 50%..but not over it for long periods..been my experience dragons in too high humidity tend to end up with respiratory infections.
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PHLdyPayne

RI due to moisture in lizards is really more related to low and improper temps though. given a proper temperature gradient, including a terrific basking spot, the Beardeds will thrive in a soil setup.

a good soil setup isn't a mud pit. in fact, it isn't even moist up top. the soil has a crust of sorts, and is moist underneath at depth.

Uro folks used to (well, still do) claim that if the Uro got wet at all, you had to dry it, especially the tail, with a hair dryer. "prevents tail rot".

they would claim this as the primary reason that Uros had to be kept with a low humidity (some even claimed 0% was ideal!).

that is ridiculous. water is life. we set up hatchling Uros on a soil substrate right out of the egg, they grew to adults and laid their own eggs in 12 months time. and those eggs hatched out in that same soil, right in the cage.

it works the same for Beardeds. the key is proper basking temps. if you give the animals the tools they need to thrive, they will indeed thrive.

someone mentioned Bearded books, and the conflicting info they contain. so many books are garbage. old old old time husbandry and ancient ideas that have long since been proven wrong and/or misunderstood, yet those books still sell by the thousands in every pet store across the country.

lizard books specifically are horribly out of date, there are only a couple that still contain relevent info.

in the Ball python world, great strides have been made in the last few years, book wise, most significantly the new VPI ball book, or Greg Maxwell's Chondro book. folks like that are bringing the rest of the hobby into the modern age.

i have a great passion for reptiles, and reptile husbandry. i really enjoy talking about husbandry theory, and trying to look at ways to improve what we are doing with captive care. thanks for the thread.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

I've raised beardeds outdoors for 5 years on our own natural terrain here in san diego. When temps here get 85 degrees and higher, the beardeds will spend the majority of the day hiding under plants or underground where it's cool and humid. They will come out in the early morning and late afternoon to eat. Temps in the 70's, the beardeds will be constantly active, eating, breeding, and laying eggs. I think one of the main problems we have with bearded husbandry is that many keepers tend to keep their beardeds too hot. Josh

that is a setup i would like to see. even better, i would like to use a temp gun and find out the temps that the animals are basking at.

i know what i expect to see, and it isn't 100, 105, or 115. it is much hotter than that for basking. 130F range.

at the same time, i don't expect to see them bask in the peak heat of the day. heck, here in Denver, 80F air temp, i can pull 130F basking temps on the sidewalk.

at peak heat, middle of the afternoon, surface temps can be well over 150F. they are out and about on a limited basis in those temps.

so yeah, i would like to do some outdoor sunshine basking temps for Beardeds. although i don't expect to see any real different results than i have seen in the field for Collareds, monitors, or other lizards. and i have certainly seen it in indoor captive setups.

as newly posted in the Collared forum, i was mountain biking in Moab Utah recently, and saw wild lizards, including Collareds, basking at 130-150F.

temperatures man, temperatures are the key : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

One reason I always recommend at least a 4'x2' floor space cage for bearded dragon is to allow for a much greater spread of temperatures. A nice wide multi-level style basking area seems to work best with bearded dragons. Too many times I see tiny grape vine branches used as basking areas..and its just far to narrow for dragons to bask on comfortably. Securely stacked bricks, flat stones, driftwood etc, work better.

With my first bearded dragon I had a large wide piece of driftwood..it covered about two thirds of the cage length wise and about half width wise (of a 5'x2' cage). It also angled upward by a nice 45 degree angle. First thing in the morning after lights go on, my dragon will be at the highest point of that basking log..temps typically are in the low 100'sF After about an hour or so, she will come off that height...and be either moving about the cage or on lower temp areas. After eating she will be in that high temp area again for awhile. Or running about the cage.

My second dragon I have in a similar sized cage though I don't have the same driftwood. Instead I have two resin stumps used for aquariums, not as wide as I like but till I find new driftwood they are really all I have. She uses them to bask, and spends much of the day running around the cage. Which is good as it keeps her nails trim.

Sometimes she is under the basking spot, alert but keeping cool. Temps in the cage, range from 105F at the top of her basking areas, to about 75-80F on the floor of the cool end. Warm end is about 85-95F on the floor...depending on how far away from directly underneath the basking bulb.

I expect lizards are far smarter than me on knowing what temps they prefer to bask at, hence I do my best to give them a good range to choose from..95-115F in the basking area, 75-85F in the cool end (73-75F is pretty much my room temp, so can't get lower...though at night its a bit lower..depending on time of year, though rarely drops below 70F).
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PHLdyPayne

There is a great book called: Bearded Dragons and Frilled Lizards. It was reccomended to me by another breeder and has some of the best info on wild dragons. It will have you thinking outside the box...Thanks, Josh