Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Want some feedback from guys who work with the current Sonoran morphs, and some of the pit guys who have kept them years back

The perception in the late eighties and early nineties was the albino Sonorans were too inbred hence some of the difficulties with fertility and regurgitation compared to offer kept pits.; and that you couldn't breed albino to albino, needed at least a het adult if not completely new blood to combine to an albino.

...but thinking about it, they weren't developed, propagated, or out crossed in any different manner than the first albino, corn, cal, pine, etc. Why the difficulties?

Haven't heard that mentioned much recently with the new morphs and combo's like hybinos. I don't know if they were out crossed sufficiently or that most breeders just lost interest with a weak strain for ten years or so. Another observation I have is that the few albinos you see for sale don't seem to have the same intense coloration of deep reds and bright yellows as they once had.

Feed back appreciated
thanks,
Jeff Serrao

jeff, i stopped working w/ them some years ago though not for the reasons you mention. i just prefer good looking sayi. jason, shannon & tom probably know more about this subject than anyone, perhaps they can shed some light on it for you......

Jeff, I know the issues you speak of but they have irones out over the years.Jason has really done a great job of outcrossing them from years ago so that what you see today are very strong lines that are far from inbred.

L8r Shannon

HI Jeff

First of all there are 2 different bloodlines of affinis. The Papago Park is the new bloodline and is the Albino found in the Blizzard line.
The secound bloodline is what I recently been calling the Red Albino. The Red Albino is an old bloodline that has been around since the 80's and was the third albino Colubrid to pop up.
Personally I dont think pits were that popular, expecially affinis until the last 8 years or so. So not being popular and people wanting a quick buck. I think know body cared about out crossing. I think alot people still dont care, they may say they do but I dont see it. For instant I do alot of outcrossing, my Red Albino Affinis colonly is totally out crossses. I am using 4 WC females "long term captive affinis" to out cross with my Red Albinos which have already been out crossed. It takes many years to get back to producing albinos this way. So I add on a few bucks for my 4 to 5 years worth of work. Hardly any body wants to buy them because the are more money. They would rather save $10 and get some inbreed animal. I do outcross sayi, affinis, annectans and deserticola. The Mexican subspecies are for harder obvious reasons.

Sorry gotten on rant and some of this is just opinion.

Thanks jason

thanks for replying

I didn't know their was 2 albino strains, interesting.

I have a few friends with some of your affinis; quad hets etc. and they are doing great with them. I wondered how long you worked with them. Do you remember these problems or have you heard them in the past?

It's great to hear that you outcross them though

The 2 bloodlines are not combatable either. It sounds like there maybe even more then 2 bloodline according to FR. Very cool for Frank to share some insight

Yeah I did notice problems. Healthy in apperance but just dying off for no appearant reason, even as astablish adults. It seem they would only live for 4 or 5 year. Maybe weak to sickness or bactria. Who knows for sure.

Outcrossing has definatly to my knowledge.

Jason

Outcrossing has helped those problems.

Here is a pic I took tonight.

Jason

Ok, are those 2 bloodlines? Which one is the bottom one? My female looks just like that one, but with no white borders on the blotches.

Thanks!
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Diego

Yeah 2 different bloodlines. The bottom one is the original bloodline and what I call the red albino, because of the red blotches.

Jason

Thanks very much for clearing that up for me, Jason!
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Diego

The first albino affinis, came from the sears parking lot in east Tucson. They were brought to the Ariz. Sonoran Des. Mus. In the late sixties.

Two young ones were collected a year apart in the same area, and turned out to be a pair. ASDM produce a few albinos and a few hets.

They gave them away to various people connected to ASDM. I worked there and in the early seventies I recieved one albino. I also located a het and another albino(Norm Nay, the pet corral) I produced a few clutches, of which I have pics, from the early seventies. I then gave that line to Ernie Wagner along with several females, including a totally striper we collected together. I do not know what success he had, but soon that line was with Steve Osborne. And the rest is history, he established them in numbers to succeed in the pet trade.

Oh, I was a kingsnake guy, so I have no real interest in keeping them.

Also, in the early seventies another albino was collected near nogales az. I believe Ruiz got that one. This line should be called ASDM line. It started there. Besides, they had so few captive breedings, they SHOULD get credit for the one they did do. hahahahahahahahahaha Cheers

That is interesting info. I remember as a youngster growing up in Anaheim CA and going to the Buena Park Alligator Farm in the late 60's and seeing an albino Sonoran Gopher and thinking that is about the greatest snake I have ever seen. It was no doubt a product of what you discribed.

Scott John Reptiles

Oh my, I lived right by the alligator farm and worked there. Ok, I collected toads and lizards for them and they let me run around the place.

And yea, I saw and held that gophersnake, it came from Brea canyon, if I remember. Someone called them and said they had a funny gophersnake, do you want it? hahahahahahahaha

They also brought a Blairs from a guy passing thru, for $10. he had a bag of snakes and wanted $5 a piece, but the real pretty one was Ten. hahahahahahahaha

I recieved an albino coastal gopher soon after that. I came from the floods in silverado, a few years later. I was at a petshop on Highway 39(Harbor????), and was walking out and a fella was walking in with a cardboard box with an albino gopher and a ball python, I asked what he wanted for the gopher and I ended up trading him a zonata for it. It was an applegate type, long before there was an applegate. hahahahahahahaha Cheers

That is interesting Frank. I also remember at the park they had this nice red corn snake that along with the gopher I really coveted. You mention going to Silverado...my dad used to take a friend and myself up there to collect, we went to the end of the road jump out into the creek collect canyon tree frogs then hike around looking for whatever. Speaking of pet shops you may have visited Mary 'n Ernie Pets in Anaheim. The store Ernie ran had the best selection of herps I have ever seen to this day. Almost any herp found in CA could be found there during variuos times along with some "exotic" eastern stuff like chain kings or black rats..he also would have boas constrictors and the ocassional anaconda, and prices were cheap even for the 60's. Being the pioneer you are you should write an article and/or book about the first breedings or acquisitions of many of the herps we all now have and keep...that would be great stuff.

Scott John Reptiles

Scott,

I used to get my feeder mice and rats from Ernie!!!! I can't even remember how many Kings, Gophers and others I traded for food. I also picked up Chicks by the flat ($0.50 a flat!!!!!) from an egg farm not far from Ernie's shop!!! Ernie! What a strange duck at times!!! At the time (1966-1970) I had a collection of 150 or so snakes, mostly Boas and Pythons. I traded for the sweetest orange Tree Boa (think I gave two Cal. Kings from Brea!) from Ernie. I still carry a scar from a 12 foot Burmese female bite!!!!! I had a half dozen tree Boas (no Emeralds and Green Tree Python were just too expensive!) I have an old Polaroid pic of FR and me holding one of my Retics. O well, enough of this old fart's reminiscing. Take care!!!

Shalom,

Pastor Pat

Pat...that's some good stuff, good 'ol Ernie..if I was not by there on a weekly basis I was calling him and he would patiently run down what he had in the shop. I remember one of his kings laid eggs and him hatching them in a plastic bag, that was how you were supposed to do it back in those days for the younger crowd. I knew an older kid, high schooler, who told us about this place where people would meet and sell/trade herps every month. I can't remeber where it was but they meet in a boy scout building and it had to been on early "reptile show". The prices were great and you would see some stuff that you usually did not see. The kid that told me about the show sold me a gravid Giant Garter Snake T.c.gigas that dropped about 25 babies...I wish I had that snake now. This has brought up some good memories of theose good 'ol days.

That would be honels hut(sp) it was in garden grove I think. Wes Dickenson started it I believe. And that old fart at L.A. zoo, Mike Dee, hahahahahaha And the St.Johns were there. Those were the older kids, at least older then me.

A few years ago, when ever an animals event happened in the L.A. area, I would see Mr. Dee(also a book dealer) on TV here in tucson.

I also worked at Hermosa Reptile for a couple of summers and made friends with the herpers in that area. Some became lifelong friends. Cheers

I've heard - on two occasions, that Sonoran gophers were collected in that general area many years ago - about 20 or so.

I never doubted the possibility of it..... Sounds like those tales may very well be true.... and I hope that's the case!!!

Thanks for the info guys!

byron.d

I believe the albino(first I had ever seen) was a coastal. Not a affinis. but then, we were kids and that was a long time ago.

ALso the sixties followed and you know how that effects the memory, hahahahahahahaha. Cheers

Wow!!!!!

I used to go to the Alligator Farm a lot until I got banned for giving them a hard time about how bad they were keeping stuff!!!!! They had a couple Boas and a Retic on display with massive cases of Mouth Rot!!!! I lived not far from Frank at Knott and Ball!

Shalom,

Pastor Pat

Thanks Frank for info. Its very hard to find and track down the info on these bloodlines. I been digging and asking questions for years, but only getting bits and peices info.

Its funny Steve Osborne bought a Albino Sonoran from me in 2002 at the SD show. He said he miss having them.

By the way nice affinis you posted below.

Jason

If your interested, I have pics of the FIRST private breeding of affinis, and the very first albino Calkings ever hatched in captivity. I did them both. Also greenrats, thayeri, ruthveni, and more(first breedings) Cheers

Frank, I would love to see pics of the first ruthveni etc...You know I am a milkhead..

Thanks Shannon

Thanks

Would you mind posting pics pf the adults from the different lines? It wouold really clear things up for me.

Thanks!
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Diego

Yeah I have some older pics but I will work on taking some new pics.

They are pretty simular looking as hatchling but as adults it obvious. The way I tell them apart as hatchling is, they have different shaped blotches. The Red Albinos have sharp star and hour glass blotches. The other line is more square shaped. But with outcrossing its hard to tell now.

Jason