Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hey folks, just some more thoughts on temps, temp guns, and captive basking setups.

i was out in Moab, Utah a week ago, doing some mountain biking, and i saw all kinds of lizards, including many great looking Collareds.

i had my temp gun, but i didn't think of taking PE use reptile pics. i did temp out many surfaces though, including rocks and stumps that i saw Collareds basking on. temps were 130F-150F on those basking spots.

general surface/soil temps were low 90's to low 100's in the shade. air temp was mid to low 80's. underground burrows are much cooler, of course.

we use 130F as a minimum basking temp for our lizards, and i recommend 130F as a minimum to my customers as well.

i will remember to take useful reptile pics for the next trip in a month or two, and i hope to get some actual Collared pics. i wasn't anticipating the herp side of the trip when i was prepping my bike stuff.

i see pics of lizard setups here in the Collared forum, and various basking spot setups.

you folks should take a look the elevated wood stacks we use for monitor basking. FAQ is linked here, along with a pics of the stack in a Uro cage, as well as a simple Ackie monitor baby setup that i just took to include with a monitor article i just wrote for Reptiles Magazine.

an elevated basking spot allows for high basking temps, using low wattage bulbs, and a very wide temperature gradient. temp is highest up next to the light, then temps drop 5-10 degrees per level, down to a general cage ambient temp in the bottom level.

using 5-6 levels also increases your usable cage space. in a 20 or 30 gallon tank, using 5-6 levels, you can double your effective cage square footage. that is a bonus, and it is easy to do.

each level provides a different temp, as well as serving as a hidespot and security. for Collareds, i would use smaller spaces, so that each level is only 1/2 to 3/4 inches tall. that would mean you could fit more stacks (8? 10?), more temperature choices, and even more square footage.

we have used these wood basking stacks for many lizard species, but also for colubrids and other snakes. it would apply perfectly to a captive Collared setup.

in a small 20 or 30 gallon setup, using an elevated basking spot, you can use a very low wattage bulb, another positive benefit. a 45 watt bulb will give you 130F basking temps without any trouble.

Uro cage

simple Ackie setup for hatchlings- 20 gallon long tank

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Pro Exotics FAQ on elevated wood basking stacks

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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

i do have a couple of bike pics that show some of the terrain that i saw so many lizards in (including Collareds).

i am not the rider in these pics, but i took them : )


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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Robyn, You the man! You have posted some good info on this forum in the last day. Its about time someone did. awesome pics of moab. My boy Nick is in Az field hunting for animals right now. Support your local pro exotics............

R.Mcknight..........

Nice Mt bike pics. I've bunny hopped many rattlesnakes while riding and have seen tons of herps. It's a good way to cover alot of ground, get exercise and see beautiful scenry.

ssss

quick question could you make something like that stack out of stone and rocks, as collareds are saxicolous (rock dwelling). i have a 30 gallon tank that im haveing trouble getting good temps in (the're okay but not perfect) and this would be a good thing to use as there is limited space...also im using a very high wattage bulb in my larger tank so maybe i can down grade that one as well to a lower power. ive got a lot of flag stone that came from my the house that my family built on one of our properties; its light weight and really flat, and i think it would make a good stack.
also is it possible that one basking temp for one lizard species may not be the best for another. collareds (especially easterns) have a really wide range, so does that mean they need to bask at 150. maybe that only means they can bask 150. 150 degrees is a hard temp to reach.

150F is actually very easy to reach. given an elevated basking spot, you can do it with a 50 watt bulb. just apply the theory.

the idea of a temp gradient is to give the lizards CHOICES for what they would like.

in my trip, and in years of experience, it isn't just that i temped out basking spots at 150F, it is that i see lizards BASKING at 150F. i saw a Collared basking in the upper 140s on this recent trip.

I WOULD SUGGEST A 130F TARGET TEMP FOR YOU. not 150F. and a proper cool side temp. gradient gradient gradient. choices choices choices!

think about it again. they bask to achieve bio needs. the outside heat source is what makes their metabolism work. but basking leaves them out in the open, and that is dangerous from a predatory standpoint.

trying to achieve temp goals while basking at 100, 105, or even 110F, it takes much longer to get the need heat, as opposed to basking at 130, or 150F.

the hotter it is, the quicker the achievement, up to a limit. they have evolved over millions of years to use this natural basking/energy source, and those kinds of temps.

temp is only one aspect of a proper setup, but with everything else done well, you can test usable basking temps yourself. i see many species of lizards using basking temps up to about 165 or so.

in the wild, on those basking sites, in the heat of the day (afternoon), you can pull surface temps approaching 200F. that is why they seldom bask in the middle of the afternoon. but when those basking surface temps are in the 130-150F range? that is prime lizard basking time : )

130F is our target basking surface temp in lizard setup.

as for stone vs wood. i find that wood works much better. use thin panels as well. you want a wide gradient, to have the temp drop 5-10 degrees through each level of the stack. stone is TOO GOOD of a heat sink to allow that. you won't find a steady drop, or a good gradient.

stone is also heavy, and if it collapses, that is bad news.

stone also conducts heat much more efficiently. a 130F surface temp on wood is going to feel cooler to the touch (and the lizard's feet) than a 130F surface temp on stone. get that same 130F surface temp on a piece of steel, and it will feel even hotter still. ya dig?

Collareds are very cool lizards. you don't have to keep them in monitor setups, that is not the point. but use a tool like a temp gun to better understand the lizard's needs and ability to use a temp gradient. apply it to your Collared setup, always look to improve the husbandry standard, don't get caught in a 15 year old rut.

keeping reptiles healthy over a long term can be challenging, that is a lot of the fun : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

i am not saying to provide a single hot spot of 150F, much less 200F : )

a good top target, at the top of a basking stack, is 130F. they can and will use that every day. especially in the morning when waking up, and after feeding.

but they won't spend a ton of time there. given a temp gradient, like the basking stack allows, you will find them at all levels throughout the day.

sometimes at 130F. but more often at 115F. or 110F. or sometimes at the bottom of the stack at 85F. sometimes on the cool end of the cage, or under the water bowl. the setup allows them to choose a good temp for the current need, while also providing security (a hidespot) at that needed temp range.

a good setup is NOT about having one spot in the cage at 75, and one spot at 130. they use a wide range of temps, you just have to find a way to provide them access to them. the basking stacks are an easy way to provide access : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

what your saying makes alot of sense, and i think thats what winterhill was arguing, but you made it more practical in terms of practice, with the stacks. let the lizard choose how hot or cool it wants to be. but i thought thats what a warm side and a cold side were for? it seems like they need a ton of temps not just 1 or 3. i will take your info into mind. ill see about making a stack. by the way ordered a tempgun, so thanks in advance!!! havent gotten it yet, should be here anyday tho right?

if you ordered it from us, we ship within one business day : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

got the invoice...cant wait to play with it!!!

My problem with setups like that is the activity level of collareds has never allowed me to get to close to the lid. All the lizards I have kept will jump to the lid banging their snouts. I prefer a deep walled cage with a hot light in which the collareds have no change of getting to the lid.

In my opinion, it is tough to compare the basking sites outside to the basking sites in a tank. I would be interested to see how long the collareds sit on a rock that is 130-150F. What is the "feels like temperature?" ;o) I think most important is hot hot is your lizards back when it is sitting on a rock, and not hot hot the rock gets. I always try to get a temperature that is two inches above the basking rock itself...that is where the burn is likely to occur.

I'd love to see your pictures of the collareds next time you are out mountain biking!

Kind Regards,

John

a burn occurs when the basking source, either the bulb or the sun, does not cover the entire body of the lizard. that doesn't happen with the sun, but does happen with bulbs.

yoru basking spot needs to be large enough to fit the entire animal. that is why we use floods and NOT spot light bulbs. spots have a narrower beam focus.

when a 6 inch (body) animal tries to bask under a 2 inch beam, it tries, but does not achieve heating needs, and only one portion of the body comes to a high temp, while the rest remains under temped, and that intensity on just one portion causes a burn.

at 130F, they don't have to sit and bask for all that long, that is the point. basking at that temp is measured in minutes, dozens of minutes perhaps, but not hours.

in low basking temp setups, 100, 105, even 110, you often hear folks complain that their lizard/collared/bearded/monitor "basks all day" and "loves to bask". but that is a poor interpretation. they are basking so long because at those low temps, it TAKES a long time to achieve temperature needs, if they are ever able to achieve them at all.

at 130F, they don't bask for 2 hours because they can achieve temp needs in a much shorter period, leaving them more time to achieve other life needs, feeding, activity, hiding, breeding, laying, digging, etc.

as for "back temps", good luck on getting consistent back temps on a lizard : )

a temp gun will read skin temps just fine, but something like a Collared may not sit still for it. and it doesn't matter, it is still irrelevant.

you have to compare apples to apples. a basking surface temp is consistent in placement and the heat it is receiving, or at least, it should be. with the given setup, given basking spot, given bulb, it will read within a degree or two every time.

an animal's skin will read differently according to current variables. is it basking? did it just finish? just start? that is not going to be consistent. surface skin temp is also very different from core body temps : )

as for measuring two inches above a basking spot, again, that is not apples to apples. that is surface temp (basking surface) vs. air temp (2 inches above basking surface). the air temp may be 30 degrees COOLER 2 or 3 inches above the basking surface. the air does not hold temperature the same way that a heat sinking and absorbing surface does.

if my basking surface measures 130F at its hottest point, and a lizard sits on that point to soak it up, effectively bringing its back, spine, head, top part of the body an inch or two closer to the heat source, yes, that is going to be an inch or two more intense. what is the temp? i don't know. it doesn't matter because it remains relative.

130F is my target temp for the hottest point, and they will use that every day and consistently, and i see positive results. going up in temp from there and you start to see diminishing returns. give them access to another basking spot at 150F, and lizards will use it, just not that often. 130F is used a lot, every day. at 115F and below, you start to see the extended basking, and that is the lizard telling you, the keeper, that it is just not hot enough to achieve, and hence they have to stay under the basking spot for longer extended periods.

it is all about choices really. give the lizards a choice, in temps, moisture levels, substrates, etc. they will make the right choices, and if you listen closely, you will understand the communication, and be able to react accordingly-

"i need more heat"

"that is too hot, i won't use it at all"

"i am too dry, dehydrated"

"i am too moist, wet"

"i am starving, i need more food"

"my metabolism sucks, i can't process my food"

"reading the animal" is i suppose an intermediate/advanced skill, but really not that hard. you just have to get into the mind set, read and react accordingly. great strides can be made in captive care if you can read and react to your reptile : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Ive noticed that my lizards enjoyed basking on top of my heat fixture.... the 30 gallon tank has a heat fixture with all lights in one... its made of metal ,and it gets hot...they would used to like to sit on the really hot side... i would get worried cuz i was afraid they would burn themselves. then i noticed that they would bask oened mouthed which means they are too hot... should that be a goal for basking ..so ho they actually need to release heat... they really seemed to enjoy basking on top of that fixture... obviously thats not ideal basking conditions, in terms of temps are those my goals.if you want take a temp reading ( no tempgun yet) and see what it is. im guessing its qound 130-150... but yeah in conclusion they like to bask on the light fixture..

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Guy LoPresti

collared lizards
Lizzy
Stevie II
2 firebelly toads
ceasar "caligula" the
baby emperor scorpion
( if you know what caligula means you'll get it)
dogs
groucho
charles
bugs

ok it tops out at about 117, so i was wrong. maybe id get a better reading with a tempgun but it doesnt arive till friday. but that is with a 75 watt bulb. used to use a 100 watt bulb...
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Guy LoPresti

collared lizards
Lizzy
Stevie II
2 firebelly toads
ceasar "caligula" the
baby emperor scorpion
( if you know what caligula means you'll get it)
dogs
groucho
charles
bugs

it is also very difficult to troubleshoot a lizard setup without accurate info, especially temps.

you are GUESSING it is 130 to 150F. but it "is" 117F, according to something. that is a big difference, ya know?

without being able to measure accurately, applying changes to your setup it largely a moot point and guessing game.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

given the picture of your setup, i would say the animal is trying to achieve a better basking result period. the way you have your cage setup, with a low basking spot, centered in the cage, you are making it very difficult for the animal to get any positive result.

i don't know that i understand the positioning you are describing, but no, the animal shouldn't be gaping and overheating during basking.

i have seen captive lizards gape under poor basking, especially too narrow a beam.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

ohh well that picture is out of date. the basking sight is now at one end. i was showing you the fixture. but yeah i used a thermometer and got 117. but basking opened mouthed is normal behavior right? i dont let them sit on the light fixture all the time, but ocasionally when they want to come out, but i want them to be within my sight range i let them sit up there. its warm, they got a good window view, so yeah!! they like to frollic up there as well.they tend to warm up in a couple minutes, and want to run around... my point is, the seem comfortable on the light fixture, but its really hot, so hot they bask openmouthed. i thought these were normal behaviors. i cant imagine that the top of this fixture is that hot. wouldnt a basking sight of 130 cause opened mouth basking?
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Guy LoPresti

collared lizards
Lizzy
Stevie II
2 firebelly toads
ceasar "caligula" the
baby emperor scorpion
( if you know what caligula means you'll get it)
dogs
groucho
charles
bugs

by reading two inches above, I place an object two inches above...I don't measure the air. I'm not sure how I would even do that efficiently. At any rate...the sun heats those rocks to 130 - 150 F fairly slowly during the morning hours. A flood light will heat a rock to 130 in minutes...I can't see those as apples either...apple pie to maybe :O)

In my opinion a hot light will heat the skin, but the inside of the lizard is where it matters. If the lizard has to move out of the heat too often...how long will it take to get their internal temperature where it needs to be? Kind of like cooking something under high heat and finding out its burn on the outside and gooey on the inside (ha, ha).

I do like your post though...very well thought out and full of information. It is nice you take the time to help out.

ohh man risky picture....how did you pull that one off without losing the lizard.
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Guy LoPresti

collared lizards
Lizzy
Stevie II
2 firebelly toads
ceasar "caligula" the
baby emperor scorpion
( if you know what caligula means you'll get it)
dogs
groucho
charles
bugs

Hey that Chili is still a hot little guy! My Yazhi looks so much like him.
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PHEve / Eve

It's ALL because of "all the SEX" he's having, LMAO ROFL

Nice talking with ya, YF ....
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PHEve / Eve